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KingOfTheApes
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 Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: I am convinced bicycling is not safe |
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I hope I don't sound too nationalistic... ;)
After the Big Three crash, what's next?
You know, after Detroit goes under, what do we do with Japanese and
European competition. I'd tax both Japanese and European imports
because they are not going to cash in into American weaknesses.
Then I'd make Detroit build fast trains, EVs, and bikes and let the
foreign invaders eat American pie. Well, let Minis and Smarts in, and
let them eat the rest.
Am I sounding too nationalistic? |
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KingOfTheApes
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: I am convinced bicycling is not safe |
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On Nov 19, 3:22 pm, Dane Buson <d...@unseen.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | In rec.bicycles.misc Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:
Of course, it woudn't be a revolution to create bike paths but to
protect the weaker species of the capitalist jungle, ie, those who are
unwilling or unable to drive SUVs.
How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that unless
you can get rid of junctions between roads and bike paths, and you
can't, bike paths don't protect you from SUVs, or indeed any other
traffic passing through junctions. And the more bikes aren't part
of their more general road experience the more dangerous those
junctions will be.
Bike paths have their place, can be useful and can certainly be
pleasurable, but they're not much of an answer to cycling safety.
I'd have to agree, and I'll trot out my personal bete noire. I think
one of the best ways to improve safety (in the U.S.) is to make getting
and keeping a license a *little* harder and a *little* more expensive.
As it is with $25 and a pulse, you can pretty much get a license.
That and retesting *everyone* every five years. If you can't be
bothered to pay $50 instead of $25 (for example) and be tested on your
ability to pilot a two ton piece of machinery at high velocity, you
shouldn't be driving.
That might drop the bottom 5% and improve bike *and* pedestrian safety.
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The same effect may be achievable by requiring a special license for
SUVs, which after all are "trucks."
Funny, they are trucks to go through the safety loopholes, but not to
require a license. |
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Peter Clinch
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: I am convinced bicycling is not safe |
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KingOfTheApes wrote:
| Quote: | Well, this based on subjective appreciation. I think good drivers
begin with education but ultimately depend on enforcement. So going
back to my favorite metaphor, WE NEED THE BANANA (the treat) AND THE
WHIP TO TAME THE BEAST.
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So where does that need bike paths?
| Quote: | I guess only Jesus can, huh?
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No.
| Quote: | Too bad for those who don't believe
there's a Jesus. Well luckily, there's a revolution around. 
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a) there isn't, and b) even if there were it would be missing the point
creating bike paths.
| Quote: | OK, HAVING OPTIONS sounds good to me, and whether there's bike
facilities or not, you should be able to ride wherever you wish.
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Absolutely, but if you insist on creating bike paths with your
"revolution" you'll find yourself being pushed onto them whether you
like it or not. Why do I think that? That's what experience shows me
happens. It required extensive lobbying by the CTC (UK's biggest
cyclists' organisation) to get rid of a word-change to the Highway Code
that would say cyclists should use "facilities" wherever possible. That
it succeeeded in quashing the revision shows that a bit of democracy in
action can work, but that it was necessary to do it shows that creating
bike paths tends to limit options rather than expand them.
I'm afraid if you want real results you hhave to deal with relaity,
rather than dreams.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
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KingOfTheApes
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: I am convinced bicycling is not safe |
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On Nov 19, 12:37 pm, Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
See, things are not as simple as "roads are good, bike paths/lanes are
bad"...
"Where I live now in Tigard, OR scored a 69, so it is an effort to
walk as most stores are about 1.5 miles away, but it is a pleasure to
bike as there are good paths and bike lanes. For example there's an
Albertsons 2.08 miles away at the end of a multiuse path that crosses
no streets, ends in their parking lot and with only 0.28miles of
narrow two lane between by apt and the start of the path. In contrast,
where I grew up in New Brunswick, NJ scored in the 80's as more stores
are nearby, but has no bike lanes and lots more traffic.
The walkable site is a good start but needs to account for road/
sidewalk conditions and traffic volume."
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=487455&page=2 |
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Peter Clinch
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: I am convinced bicycling is not safe |
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KingOfTheApes wrote:
| Quote: | OK, let's say not everybody is "tough." Let's admit some people are
"chicken" or that they are just bothered by traffic noise... so they
need bike paths. Let's assume also that families with kids are not
tough enough for the roads, so they can have an space along the
ckicken.
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Look at the NL, again. Plenty of places with no fietspads, yet
still families and kids out on bikes. Which takes you back to
respect being more important than bike paths.
| Quote: | Of course, it woudn't be a revolution to create bike paths but to
protect the weaker species of the capitalist jungle, ie, those who are
unwilling or unable to drive SUVs.
|
How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that unless
you can get rid of junctions between roads and bike paths, and you
can't, bike paths don't protect you from SUVs, or indeed any other
traffic passing through junctions. And the more bikes aren't part
of their more general road experience the more dangerous those
junctions will be.
Bike paths have their place, can be useful and can certainly be
pleasurable, but they're not much of an answer to cycling safety.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
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KingOfTheApes
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:01 am Post subject: Re: A March on Washington... on Bicycle? |
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What does the word "banana" tell you?
"BANANA? Yes, it appeals to the monkey within us, yearning for the
simple life in the jungle. Well, perhaps it's a symbol of a better
world to come in frugality and peace."
As I was watching '2001: A Space Odyssey,' it perfectly made sense
that the monkeys were first vegetarian (banana eaters) before
acquiring the "knowledge" of killing and eating meat. So a Banana
Revolution would appeal to that world in the treetops, rather than the
technological advanced world depicted later in the movie.
Then I sat down and wrote the deep thought above. What's our future,
KILLING MONKEYS OR BANANA-PEACE-LOVING MONKEYS?
'Over images of an African desert, a caption reads "The Dawn of Man".
A tribe of herbivore apes is foraging for food. One of them is
attacked and killed by a leopard. They are driven from their water
hole by another tribe. Defeated, they sleep overnight in a small
exposed rock crater. Waking at sunrise, they find that a mysterious
black, rectangular monolith has appeared in front of their shelter.
They approach the monolith shrieking and jumping. Subsequently, one of
the apes (Daniel Richter) realizes how to use a bone as both tool and
a weapon while having mental flashbacks to the monolith, indicating
that the monolith has 'taught' him this knowledge. The apes are now
able to kill animals and eat meat. Next morning they wrest control of
the water hole away from the other tribe, killing their leader in the
process. Exultant in victory, the ape leader throws his bone into the
air which switches via match cut to a shot of an orbital satellite
millions of years in the future, circa 2000. This satellite and three
more immediately following it are generally identified as orbiting
nuclear weapons.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001:_A...sey_%28film%29
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Banana Revolution
(for vegetarian monkeys)
http://webspawner.com/users/bananarevolution |
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Dane Buson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:22 am Post subject: Re: I am convinced bicycling is not safe |
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In rec.bicycles.misc Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | KingOfTheApes wrote:
Of course, it woudn't be a revolution to create bike paths but to
protect the weaker species of the capitalist jungle, ie, those who are
unwilling or unable to drive SUVs.
How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that unless
you can get rid of junctions between roads and bike paths, and you
can't, bike paths don't protect you from SUVs, or indeed any other
traffic passing through junctions. And the more bikes aren't part
of their more general road experience the more dangerous those
junctions will be.
Bike paths have their place, can be useful and can certainly be
pleasurable, but they're not much of an answer to cycling safety.
|
I'd have to agree, and I'll trot out my personal bete noire. I think
one of the best ways to improve safety (in the U.S.) is to make getting
and keeping a license a *little* harder and a *little* more expensive.
As it is with $25 and a pulse, you can pretty much get a license.
That and retesting *everyone* every five years. If you can't be
bothered to pay $50 instead of $25 (for example) and be tested on your
ability to pilot a two ton piece of machinery at high velocity, you
shouldn't be driving.
That might drop the bottom 5% and improve bike *and* pedestrian safety.
--
Dane Buson - nn10tp08@unixbigots.org
"I brought the atom bomb. I think it's a good time to use it."
-MST3K |
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KingOfTheApes
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: You expect Obama to change America, or just waiting for |
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On Nov 18, 8:53 pm, d...@geewhiz.com wrote:
| Quote: | Doug wrote:
I was surprised that my old neighborhood in New Orleans was a
“walker’s paradise” at 100%,
Interesting. I put the address of the house I grew up in--just off
the cemetery end of Canal St and got an 82%
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Cemeteries are safer to walk than most places in America. Main risk of
walking in America is crime.
But people who got enough money to live in gated communities can so
pretty freely. |
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KingOfTheApes
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: I am convinced bicycling is not safe |
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On Nov 20, 8:09 am, Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | KingOfTheApes wrote:
Not on major streets. It depends whether you are talking about a
bikeable place or just a "hole"...
(and there's a lot of people living in it, see poll)
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=487455
For some values of "a lot". That's a statistically meaningless sample.
Now the question is how many decades we will take to make drivers, who
are used to the law of the jungle, more civilized?
It takes time, but it can (and does) happen. For example, not too
long ago in the UK "one for the road" was perfectly acceptable
amongst the general population. Nowadays drink driving is a pretty
major no-no for the general public.
Though I suspect the most important driver of changing attitudes
will be the price if fuel going up, as that puts more peple on bikes.
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OK, OK, but here is NOT EVEN AN ISSUE, nor will I expect it to be.
Before you can even fix the problem, you must accept you have a
jungle, right?
Just browse...
http://www.lulu.com/content/186268
One question, one characteristic that hints at a jungle is GATED
COMMUNITIES, where the Rich and Powerful isolate themselves in
relative safety, and then let the world fall prey to the Law of the
Jungle.
Is the UK like that? How often you find them in Europe for that
matter? |
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KingOfTheApes
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: I am convinced bicycling is not safe |
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On Nov 20, 11:41 am, Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | KingOfTheApes wrote:
One question, one characteristic that hints at a jungle is GATED
COMMUNITIES, where the Rich and Powerful isolate themselves in
relative safety, and then let the world fall prey to the Law of the
Jungle.
Is the UK like that? How often you find them in Europe for that
matter?
There's one just around the corner from me. Since we're in a very
un-troubled neighbourhood the consensus around where I live is it's a
complete waste of time for those who've bought houses in there.
So they're not isolating themselves in relative safety, they're just
isolating themselves. Their problem, not mine, rather than the other
way about.
You seem obsessed that you're living in a jungle. While I'm sure there
are parts of our respective nations that conform to the description I've
not seen much that suggests it's the rule rather than the exception.
Certainly not the case that it's a fair generalisation, yet that's what
you will persist in doing.
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Are you watching too many American shows? That may account for an
excess in SUVs and gated communities.
They are here everywhere, so they must mean something. Actually, I
think they mean the same as in Mexico or Costa Rica...
"about the EU and gated communities. I have not seen one. You can find
certain suburban towns where poverty is higher than the norm..
Certainly precautions such as bullet proof glass, I have yet to
find... What I notice.. No trailer parks.. Trailer parks are often sub
income and in a state of squalor.. It's rare to find such an invention
thourghout the EU.. Why. For the most part, you go to the biggest
towns we have extensively walked about town centers and not felt
unsafe. Places such as Barcelona, you might find your pockets picked,
but you are safe. So why a need for gated communities."
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=488100 |
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Peter Clinch
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: I am convinced bicycling is not safe |
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KingOfTheApes wrote:
| Quote: | Not on major streets. It depends whether you are talking about a
bikeable place or just a "hole"...
(and there's a lot of people living in it, see poll)
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=487455
|
For some values of "a lot". That's a statistically meaningless sample.
| Quote: | Now the question is how many decades we will take to make drivers, who
are used to the law of the jungle, more civilized?
|
It takes time, but it can (and does) happen. For example, not too
long ago in the UK "one for the road" was perfectly acceptable
amongst the general population. Nowadays drink driving is a pretty
major no-no for the general public.
Though I suspect the most important driver of changing attitudes
will be the price if fuel going up, as that puts more peple on bikes.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
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KingOfTheApes
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: I am convinced bicycling is not safe |
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On Nov 20, 2:24 pm, Dane Buson <d...@unseen.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | In rec.bicycles.misc Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:
Now the question is how many decades we will take to make drivers, who
are used to the law of the jungle, more civilized?
It takes time, but it can (and does) happen. For example, not too
long ago in the UK "one for the road" was perfectly acceptable
amongst the general population. Nowadays drink driving is a pretty
major no-no for the general public.
Though I suspect the most important driver of changing attitudes
will be the price if fuel going up, as that puts more peple on bikes.
That's what I've observed for myself. That the thing that really
motivates most poeple is when the cost to their pocketbook rises. This
is especially true if it's a rapid rise. Inconveinence in the form of
traffic jams, poor parking and other things help also. But cost seems
to be a big driver (no pun intended) of people's change in behaviour.
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Yeah, that's why I get so depressed... the price of oil is going
down. :(
But then I remember that we are in the middle of a huge economic
crisis and that the Big Three are trying to survive after producing so
many fat SUVs, and finally I get happy. |
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Peter Clinch
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: I am convinced bicycling is not safe |
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KingOfTheApes wrote:
| Quote: | One question, one characteristic that hints at a jungle is GATED
COMMUNITIES, where the Rich and Powerful isolate themselves in
relative safety, and then let the world fall prey to the Law of the
Jungle.
Is the UK like that? How often you find them in Europe for that
matter?
|
There's one just around the corner from me. Since we're in a very
un-troubled neighbourhood the consensus around where I live is it's a
complete waste of time for those who've bought houses in there.
So they're not isolating themselves in relative safety, they're just
isolating themselves. Their problem, not mine, rather than the other
way about.
You seem obsessed that you're living in a jungle. While I'm sure there
are parts of our respective nations that conform to the description I've
not seen much that suggests it's the rule rather than the exception.
Certainly not the case that it's a fair generalisation, yet that's what
you will persist in doing.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
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Edward Dolan
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: Re: I am convinced bicycling is not safe |
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"KingOfTheApes" <comandante.banana@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:34c6e487-6acf-4dc0-94e6-bc014533b0e9@d23g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
[...]
| Quote: | Are you watching too many American shows? That may account for an
excess in SUVs and gated communities. |
| Quote: | They are here everywhere, so they must mean something. Actually, I
think they mean the same as in Mexico or Costa Rica... |
Yes, I think it does mean the same thing. As civilization breaks down, those
with the wherewithal seek safety above all else. They will not only move to
gated communities, but they will fortify their homes with walls in the end.
Go to any third world country and you will see what I mean.
Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota |
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Dane Buson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: Re: I am convinced bicycling is not safe |
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In rec.bicycles.misc Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | KingOfTheApes wrote:
Now the question is how many decades we will take to make drivers, who
are used to the law of the jungle, more civilized?
It takes time, but it can (and does) happen. For example, not too
long ago in the UK "one for the road" was perfectly acceptable
amongst the general population. Nowadays drink driving is a pretty
major no-no for the general public.
Though I suspect the most important driver of changing attitudes
will be the price if fuel going up, as that puts more peple on bikes.
|
That's what I've observed for myself. That the thing that really
motivates most poeple is when the cost to their pocketbook rises. This
is especially true if it's a rapid rise. Inconveinence in the form of
traffic jams, poor parking and other things help also. But cost seems
to be a big driver (no pun intended) of people's change in behaviour.
--
Dane Buson - nn10tp08@unixbigots.org
"Never draw fire; it irritates the people around you." |
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