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Krater Makedonski
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 Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: A "Black Athenian" case of blatant hypocrisy |
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I found this article from my old friend  in the American Chronicle. It
should be a good lesson for my "Black Athena" "sub-Saharans" and the
Macedonian mutants-propagandists friends. :-)
A Greek case of blatant hypocrisy
Gandeto - November 15, 2008
Re: FYROM - A Country With A Borrowed Identity
Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (these "Black Athena" "sub-Saharans"
know NOT of any shame - KM)
Oct 29, 2008 - George C. Papavizas writes:
"This is disputing Risto Stefov (a.k.a Christos Stefou) & Mr. J.S.Gandeto
(birthname Grezlovski) absurd and falsified claims on Greece and Macedonia."
The AMAC´s writer attempts to ´promote truth´ and to ´dispute absurd and
falsified claims on Greece and Macedonia´.
Again, and with added distaste, I am being called to respond to an article I
recently wrote in the American Chronicle. Having no desire to enter into a
lengthy discussion with the opponents of my article I will simply point to
some glaring hypocrisy on their part.
First and foremost his accusations are groundless and unsubstantiated; the
accuser is shooting blanks. Instead of addressing and exposing the
´falsities and the absurdities´ of my claims, he goes into lengthy diatribes
about irrelevant topics, far from the gist and the content of my article.
Perhaps, the author is using ready-made-for-publication responses given to
him by his handlers. Be that as it may, this person purports to promote the
truth and to dispute absurd and falsified claims on Greece and Macedonia.
With the following passage from Livy (History of Rome, XXXI, 29) he
attempts, I think, to show that Macedonians and Greeks were the same people
who speak the same language; he quotes:
"Livy (History of Rome, XXXI, 29) wrote: "The Aetolians, the Akarnanians,
the Macedonians, men of the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial
causes that arise from time to time" (Templar 2003)".
There are a few anomalies connected with this quote:
(a) We have no idea who this person is who speaks,
(b) Whom is he speaking to? And
(c) What are the extenuating circumstances preceding or following the
speech?
First, this is a Macedonian delegate speaking in front of Greek city-states´
delegates trying to persuade them not to become Roman allies in the war
against King Philip V from Macedon.
Second, he is speaking at Naupactus, the council of Aetolian League and the
Panaetolian Congress.
Third, at this time Rome has gathered enough allies from the Greek
city-states that Macedon had no other choice but to prepare for another war
with Rome.
Even with these minor flaws, his delivery of the "truth" would have been
sufficient except for one monumental oversight that I, even though favorably
inclined, will not be able to accommodate him; he arrogantly doctored the
quote to suit his needs.
Here is the actual quote from Livy (Book XXXI, 29): Penguin classics.
Translated by Ian Scott-Kilvert
"The Aetolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, are divided or united by
unimportant causes that arise from time to time;"
As you can see there is no mention of "men of the same speech".
I wish to add here only the citation by Polybius, where the Macedonian king
Philip V at the conference with the Roman general Flaminus states that the
Aetolians (and several other peoples) are NOT Greeks. This occasion, by the
way, is couple years after the (doctored) speech which the "sub-Saharans"
have been nauseously trumpeting everywhere to "prove" the "greekness of
Macedonia". When one integrates both speeches, then the context of the
speech the "Black Athena" propagandists use to "prove" their claims,
actually proves the opposite, that is: the Greeks and the Macedonians are
two separate national/ethnic entities - as modern scholars attest. - KM |
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ADR
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: Re: A "Black Athenian" case of blatant hypocrisy |
|
|
On Nov 17, 4:06 pm, "Krater Makedonski" <kra...@optusnet.com.au>
wrote:
| Quote: | I found this article from my old friend in the American Chronicle. It
should be a good lesson for my "Black Athena" "sub-Saharans" and the
Macedonian mutants-propagandists friends. :-)
A Greek case of blatant hypocrisy
Gandeto - November 15, 2008
Re: FYROM - A Country With A Borrowed Identity
Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (these "Black Athena" "sub-Saharans"
know NOT of any shame - KM)
Oct 29, 2008 - George C. Papavizas writes:
"This is disputing Risto Stefov (a.k.a Christos Stefou) & Mr. J.S.Gandeto
(birthname Grezlovski) absurd and falsified claims on Greece and Macedonia."
The AMAC´s writer attempts to ´promote truth´ and to ´dispute absurd and
falsified claims on Greece and Macedonia´.
Again, and with added distaste, I am being called to respond to an article I
recently wrote in the American Chronicle. Having no desire to enter into a
lengthy discussion with the opponents of my article I will simply point to
some glaring hypocrisy on their part.
First and foremost his accusations are groundless and unsubstantiated; the
accuser is shooting blanks. Instead of addressing and exposing the
´falsities and the absurdities´ of my claims, he goes into lengthy diatribes
about irrelevant topics, far from the gist and the content of my article.
Perhaps, the author is using ready-made-for-publication responses given to
him by his handlers. Be that as it may, this person purports to promote the
truth and to dispute absurd and falsified claims on Greece and Macedonia.
With the following passage from Livy (History of Rome, XXXI, 29) he
attempts, I think, to show that Macedonians and Greeks were the same people
who speak the same language; he quotes:
"Livy (History of Rome, XXXI, 29) wrote: "The Aetolians, the Akarnanians,
the Macedonians, men of the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial
causes that arise from time to time" (Templar 2003)".
There are a few anomalies connected with this quote:
(a) We have no idea who this person is who speaks,
(b) Whom is he speaking to? And
(c) What are the extenuating circumstances preceding or following the
speech?
First, this is a Macedonian delegate speaking in front of Greek city-states´
delegates trying to persuade them not to become Roman allies in the war
against King Philip V from Macedon.
Second, he is speaking at Naupactus, the council of Aetolian League and the
Panaetolian Congress.
Third, at this time Rome has gathered enough allies from the Greek
city-states that Macedon had no other choice but to prepare for another war
with Rome.
Even with these minor flaws, his delivery of the "truth" would have been
sufficient except for one monumental oversight that I, even though favorably
inclined, will not be able to accommodate him; he arrogantly doctored the
quote to suit his needs.
Here is the actual quote from Livy (Book XXXI, 29): Penguin classics.
Translated by Ian Scott-Kilvert
"The Aetolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, are divided or united by
unimportant causes that arise from time to time;"
As you can see there is no mention of "men of the same speech".
I wish to add here only the citation by Polybius, where the Macedonian king
Philip V at the conference with the Roman general Flaminus states that the
Aetolians (and several other peoples) are NOT Greeks. This occasion, by the
way, is couple years after the (doctored) speech which the "sub-Saharans"
have been nauseously trumpeting everywhere to "prove" the "greekness of
Macedonia". When one integrates both speeches, then the context of the
speech the "Black Athena" propagandists use to "prove" their claims,
actually proves the opposite, that is: the Greeks and the Macedonians are
two separate national/ethnic entities - as modern scholars attest. - KM
|
I do not know what is your overwhelming need to lie. And lie and lie
you do without shame to a defense of stupid and misguide cause. Here
is the full paragraph from Livy (Book XXX1, 29) translated by Cyrus
Edmonds for Project Gutenberg (all the classics on the Internet). As
you can see, you are totally mistaken (or an unrepented liar, your
choice). Here is the full paragrah:
---------------------------------------
The assembly of the Aetolians, which they call Panaetolium, was to
meet on a certain day. In order to be present at this, the king's
ambassadors hastened their journey, and Lucius Furius Purpureo also
arrived, deputed by the consul. Ambassadors from the Athenians,
likewise, came to this assembly. The Macedonians were first heard, as
with them the latest treaty had been made; and they declared, that as
no change of circumstances had occurred, they had nothing new to
introduce: for the same reasons which had induced them to make peace
with Philip, after experiencing the unprofitableness of an alliance
with the Romans, should engage them to preserve it now that it was
established. "Do you rather choose," said one of the ambassadors, "to
imitate the inconsistency, or levity, shall I call it, of the Romans,
who ordered this answer to be given to your ambassadors at Rome: 'Why,
Aetolians, do you apply to us, when, without our approbation, you have
made peace with Philip?' Yet these same people now require that you
should, in conjunction with them, wage war against Philip. Formerly,
too, they pretended that they took arms on your account, and in your
defence against Philip: now they do not allow you to continue at peace
with him. To assist Messana, they first embarked for Sicily; and a
second time, that they might redeem Syracuse to freedom when oppressed
by the Carthaginians. Both Messana and Syracuse, and all Sicily, they
hold in their own possession, and have reduced it into a tributary
province under their axes and rods. You imagine, perhaps, that in the
same manner as you hold an assembly at Naupactus, according to your
own laws, under magistrates created by yourselves, at liberty to
choose allies and enemies, and to have peace or war at your own
option, so the assembly of the states of Sicily is summoned, to
Syracuse, or Messana, or Lilybaeum. No, a Roman praetor presides at
the meeting; summoned by his command they assemble; they behold him,
attended by his lictors seated on a lofty throne, issuing his haughty
edicts. His rods are ready for their backs, his axes for their necks,
and every year they are allotted a different master. Neither ought
they nor can they, wonder at this, when they see all the cities of
Italy bending under the same yoke,--Rhegium, Tarentum Capua, not to
mention those in their own neighbourhood, out of the ruins of which
their city of Rome grew into power. Capua indeed subsists, the grave
and monument of the Campanian people, that entire people having been
either cut off or driven into banishment; the mutilated carcass of a
city, without senate, without commons, without magistrates; a sort of
prodigy, the leaving which to be inhabited, showed more cruelty than
if it had been utterly destroyed. If foreigners who are separated from
us to a greater distance by their language, manners, and laws, than by
the distance by sea and land, are allowed to get footing here, it is
madness to hope that any thing will continue in its present state.
Does the sovereignty of Philip seem in any degree incompatible with
your freedom, who, at a time when he was justly incensed against you,
demanded nothing more of you than peace; and at present requires no
more than the observance of the peace which he agreed to? Accustom
foreign legions to these countries, and receive the yoke; too late,
and in vain, will you look for Philip as an ally, when you shall have
the Roman as a master. Trifling causes occasionally unite and disunite
the Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians, men speaking the same
language. With foreigners, with barbarians, all Greeks have, and ever
will have, eternal war: because they are enemies by nature, which is
always the same, and not from causes which change with the times. My
discourse shall conclude with the same argument with which it began.
Three years since, the same persons, assembled in this same place,
determined on peace with the same Philip, contrary to the inclinations
of the same Romans, who now wish that the peace should be broken,
after it has been adjusted and ratified. In the subject of your
deliberation, fortune has made no change; why you should make any, I
do not see."
Who is speaking? One of the Macedonian ambassadors, apparently,
although there were various ambassadors in that meeting and the actual
speaker is not identified by name. You can read the whole speech
above but here is again the main sentence:
" too late, and in vain, will you look for Philip as an ally, when you
shall have the Roman as a master. Trifling causes occasionally unite
and disunite the Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians, men speaking
the same language. With foreigners, with barbarians, all Greeks have,
and ever will have, eternal war: because they are enemies by nature,
which is always the same"
You can read the whole book, if you choose, It is freely available.
And if you wish, I can provide you the Latin original . So, stop the
lies...OK??? |
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| |
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Spirit of Truth
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: Re: A "Black Athenian" case of blatant hypocrisy |
|
|
"Krater Makedonski" <krater@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:492206fd$0$18429$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
| Quote: | "Livy (History of Rome, XXXI, 29) wrote: "The Aetolians, the Akarnanians,
the Macedonians, "
|
"men of the same speech"
Sorry to have mislead you, Bulgar, but Penguin Classics omitted
that text in error!
ROTFL
Spirit of Truth |
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Krater Makedonski
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: Re: A "Black Athenian" case of blatant hypocrisy |
|
|
"ADR" <aretzios@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9bcb0f4c-b77d-44ff-929f-9dc244478fd4@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 17, 4:06 pm, "Krater Makedonski" <kra...@optusnet.com.au>
wrote:
| Quote: | I found this article from my old friend in the American Chronicle. It
should be a good lesson for my "Black Athena" "sub-Saharans" and the
Macedonian mutants-propagandists friends. :-)
A Greek case of blatant hypocrisy
Gandeto - November 15, 2008
Re: FYROM - A Country With A Borrowed Identity
Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (these "Black Athena"
"sub-Saharans"
know NOT of any shame - KM)
Oct 29, 2008 - George C. Papavizas writes:
"This is disputing Risto Stefov (a.k.a Christos Stefou) & Mr. J.S.Gandeto
(birthname Grezlovski) absurd and falsified claims on Greece and
Macedonia."
The AMAC´s writer attempts to ´promote truth´ and to ´dispute absurd and
falsified claims on Greece and Macedonia´.
Again, and with added distaste, I am being called to respond to an article
I
recently wrote in the American Chronicle. Having no desire to enter into a
lengthy discussion with the opponents of my article I will simply point to
some glaring hypocrisy on their part.
First and foremost his accusations are groundless and unsubstantiated; the
accuser is shooting blanks. Instead of addressing and exposing the
´falsities and the absurdities´ of my claims, he goes into lengthy
diatribes
about irrelevant topics, far from the gist and the content of my article.
Perhaps, the author is using ready-made-for-publication responses given to
him by his handlers. Be that as it may, this person purports to promote
the
truth and to dispute absurd and falsified claims on Greece and Macedonia.
With the following passage from Livy (History of Rome, XXXI, 29) he
attempts, I think, to show that Macedonians and Greeks were the same
people
who speak the same language; he quotes:
"Livy (History of Rome, XXXI, 29) wrote: "The Aetolians, the Akarnanians,
the Macedonians, men of the same speech, are united or disunited by
trivial
causes that arise from time to time" (Templar 2003)".
There are a few anomalies connected with this quote:
(a) We have no idea who this person is who speaks,
(b) Whom is he speaking to? And
(c) What are the extenuating circumstances preceding or following the
speech?
First, this is a Macedonian delegate speaking in front of Greek
city-states´
delegates trying to persuade them not to become Roman allies in the war
against King Philip V from Macedon.
Second, he is speaking at Naupactus, the council of Aetolian League and
the
Panaetolian Congress.
Third, at this time Rome has gathered enough allies from the Greek
city-states that Macedon had no other choice but to prepare for another
war
with Rome.
Even with these minor flaws, his delivery of the "truth" would have been
sufficient except for one monumental oversight that I, even though
favorably
inclined, will not be able to accommodate him; he arrogantly doctored the
quote to suit his needs.
Here is the actual quote from Livy (Book XXXI, 29): Penguin classics.
Translated by Ian Scott-Kilvert
"The Aetolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, are divided or united by
unimportant causes that arise from time to time;"
As you can see there is no mention of "men of the same speech".
I wish to add here only the citation by Polybius, where the Macedonian
king
Philip V at the conference with the Roman general Flaminus states that the
Aetolians (and several other peoples) are NOT Greeks. This occasion, by
the
way, is couple years after the (doctored) speech which the "sub-Saharans"
have been nauseously trumpeting everywhere to "prove" the "greekness of
Macedonia". When one integrates both speeches, then the context of the
speech the "Black Athena" propagandists use to "prove" their claims,
actually proves the opposite, that is: the Greeks and the Macedonians are
two separate national/ethnic entities - as modern scholars attest. - KM
|
***I do not know what is your overwhelming need to lie. And lie and lie
you do without shame to a defense of stupid and misguide cause. Here
is the full paragraph from Livy (Book XXX1, 29) translated by Cyrus
Edmonds for Project Gutenberg (all the classics on the Internet). As
you can see, you are totally mistaken (or an unrepented liar, your
choice). Here is the full paragrah: ***
He, he, he... Lying? Pretty soon yo'll be joining the ranks of the "Spirit",
in the brain(less) department, with "pearls" like the above.. :-(
It seems to me your mutation has had a very detrimental effect on your
feeble intellect, grkoman. Especially, now, in your old age.  Your
comprehension has never been a strong point, but lately, it seems to me that
it has abandoned you completely. It's either that, or, as has been your
"custom", in your haste to hurl BASELESS accusations at anyone exposing and
quashing the propaganda of your "Black Athena"-"sub-Saharan" masters, you
have trouble reading the subject matter properly. Also, and I have noticed
this much, much earlier, you suffer from dementia. You seem not have even an
inkling that this exact subject matter has been debated on numerous
occasions previously. There is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for you to play the
"teacher" again, mutant-grkoman. You have been told this on countless
occasions. Anyhow, the passage you provide has no relevance to your
"argument", nitwit, since it is NOT related to the original
counter-argument: the translation by Scott-Kilvert. And on top of this, as I
point out to you, the recital by Polibius (also copied in Livy's book) of
the Macedonian king's (Philip V) speech at the confenrence with the Roman
general, CLEARLY tells you that the Macedonians see the Aetolians (and other
"Greeks") as NON Greeks, which makes your "extract" irrelevant at best, or
contrary to your argument.
---------------------------------------
The assembly of the Aetolians, which they call Panaetolium, was to
meet on a certain day. In order to be present at this, the king's
ambassadors hastened their journey, and Lucius Furius Purpureo also
arrived, deputed by the consul. Ambassadors from the Athenians,
likewise, came to this assembly. The Macedonians were first heard, as
with them the latest treaty had been made; and they declared, that as
no change of circumstances had occurred, they had nothing new to
introduce: for the same reasons which had induced them to make peace
with Philip, after experiencing the unprofitableness of an alliance
with the Romans, should engage them to preserve it now that it was
established. "Do you rather choose," said one of the ambassadors, "to
imitate the inconsistency, or levity, shall I call it, of the Romans,
who ordered this answer to be given to your ambassadors at Rome: 'Why,
Aetolians, do you apply to us, when, without our approbation, you have
made peace with Philip?' Yet these same people now require that you
should, in conjunction with them, wage war against Philip. Formerly,
too, they pretended that they took arms on your account, and in your
defence against Philip: now they do not allow you to continue at peace
with him. To assist Messana, they first embarked for Sicily; and a
second time, that they might redeem Syracuse to freedom when oppressed
by the Carthaginians. Both Messana and Syracuse, and all Sicily, they
hold in their own possession, and have reduced it into a tributary
province under their axes and rods. You imagine, perhaps, that in the
same manner as you hold an assembly at Naupactus, according to your
own laws, under magistrates created by yourselves, at liberty to
choose allies and enemies, and to have peace or war at your own
option, so the assembly of the states of Sicily is summoned, to
Syracuse, or Messana, or Lilybaeum. No, a Roman praetor presides at
the meeting; summoned by his command they assemble; they behold him,
attended by his lictors seated on a lofty throne, issuing his haughty
edicts. His rods are ready for their backs, his axes for their necks,
and every year they are allotted a different master. Neither ought
they nor can they, wonder at this, when they see all the cities of
Italy bending under the same yoke,--Rhegium, Tarentum Capua, not to
mention those in their own neighbourhood, out of the ruins of which
their city of Rome grew into power. Capua indeed subsists, the grave
and monument of the Campanian people, that entire people having been
either cut off or driven into banishment; the mutilated carcass of a
city, without senate, without commons, without magistrates; a sort of
prodigy, the leaving which to be inhabited, showed more cruelty than
if it had been utterly destroyed. If foreigners who are separated from
us to a greater distance by their language, manners, and laws, than by
the distance by sea and land, are allowed to get footing here, it is
madness to hope that any thing will continue in its present state.
Does the sovereignty of Philip seem in any degree incompatible with
your freedom, who, at a time when he was justly incensed against you,
demanded nothing more of you than peace; and at present requires no
more than the observance of the peace which he agreed to? Accustom
foreign legions to these countries, and receive the yoke; too late,
and in vain, will you look for Philip as an ally, when you shall have
the Roman as a master. Trifling causes occasionally unite and disunite
the Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians, men speaking the same
language. With foreigners, with barbarians, all Greeks have, and ever
will have, eternal war: because they are enemies by nature, which is
always the same, and not from causes which change with the times. My
discourse shall conclude with the same argument with which it began.
Three years since, the same persons, assembled in this same place,
determined on peace with the same Philip, contrary to the inclinations
of the same Romans, who now wish that the peace should be broken,
after it has been adjusted and ratified. In the subject of your
deliberation, fortune has made no change; why you should make any, I
do not see."
Who is speaking? One of the Macedonian ambassadors, apparently,
although there were various ambassadors in that meeting and the actual
speaker is not identified by name. You can read the whole speech
above but here is again the main sentence:
" too late, and in vain, will you look for Philip as an ally, when you
shall have the Roman as a master. Trifling causes occasionally unite
and disunite the Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians, men speaking
the same language. With foreigners, with barbarians, all Greeks have,
and ever will have, eternal war: because they are enemies by nature,
which is always the same"
You can read the whole book, if you choose, It is freely available.
And if you wish, I can provide you the Latin original . So, stop the
lies...OK??? |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Spirit of Truth
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: Re: A "Black Athenian" case of blatant hypocrisy |
|
|
"Krater Makedonski" <krater@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:49225ace$0$18427$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Silly.
MACEDONIA - An Ancient GREEK Land
In the year 200 B.C. the Macedonian King Philip V sent
Macedonian ambassadors to the council of the Aetolian
League, the 'Panaetolian Congress', to try to prevent the
Romans from inducing the Aetolians to change their allegiance
from Philip V to the Romans in their 2nd Macedonian War.
At the council was also the Roman representative
sent by the consul, and also a deputation from the
Athenians who were the Romans' allies at this time.
A hearing was first given to the Macedonians.
The Macedonian delegates said:
'..........the same reasons which led them (the Aetolians)
to make peace with Philip should lead them to keep that
peace, once it had been established'.
'Or do you prefer' said one of the the delegates, '.......
................. . It is sheer madness to expect anything will
remain in the same state if aliens, more widely separated
from you by language, customs and laws than by distance
over sea and land, obtain control over these parts.
Philip's rule ............. . Allow the foreign legions to settle
down in these parts and take the yoke on your shoulders;
then it will be too late and all in vain to call on Philip as
your ally, when you have the Roman for your lord. The
Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, are divided
or united by unimportant causes that arise from time
to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks are and
will be for ever at war; for they are enemies not for
reasons which change from day to day, but by nature -
and nature is eternal. But now my speech will end .........'
Livy (Titus Livius), XXXI.28 - XXXI.29
from LIVY. ROME AND THE MEDITERRANEAN
Translated by HENRY BETTENSON
PENGUIN CLASSICS
For fair use only
_Rome dictates terms after 3rd Macedonian War_
17 [167 B.C.]. The Senate appointed ten commissioners
for Macedonia and five for Illyricum; on their advice
Paulus and Anicius were to settle affairs in those
countries. The members of the Macedonian
commission were nominated first: they were .......... .
The men who were being sent on the commissions
were of a quality to justify the hope that on their
advice the commanders would make no decisions
inconsistant with the clemency and the dignity of the
Roman people; nevertheless, there were discussions
in the Senate about guiding principles of policy so
that the commissioners should be able to convey from
home to the generals the ground work of a settlement.
18. First of all, it was decided that the Macedonians and
the Illyrians should be free; so that it should be evident
to all peoples that the arms of the Roman people did
not bring slavery to the free but, on the contrary,
freedom to the enslaved; so that nations which enjoyed
freedom should feel that their liberty was assured in
perpetuity under the protection of the Roman People,
and that those people who lived under the rule of kings
should be convinced that for the present their rulers
were more gentle and more just by reason of their
respect for the Roman People, and that if ever their
rulers should be at war with the Roman People, the
result of that war would bring victory to the Romans
and liberty to themselves.
It was also decided to do away with the leasing of the
Macedonian mines,.............................................. .
Finally, fearing that a common legislative body for
the whole nation might give a chance for some
unscrupulous demagogue to pervert the freedom
given by healthy moderation into the licence
which is a plague to any commonwealth, the Senate
decided to divide Macedonia into four districts, each
having its own governing body. It was also decreed
that Macedonia should pay to the Roman people
half the tribute which they had customarily paid to
their kings. ........................................................ .
29. Paulus had given orders that on a certain day
ten leading citizens from each city should present
themselves at Amphipolis, that all official documents
deposited in different places should be collected by
that time, and the king's money should be brought
in. When the day arrived, Paulus, accompanied by
the ten commissioners, took his seat on his official
platform, surrounded by the whole crowd of
Macedonians. The Macedonians were accustomed
to the power of kings; but this new sovereign power
was displayed to them in a fashion to inspire
dread; the consul's seat of judgement, his entrance
after a path had been cleared, the herald, and
the attendant - all these were novelties to their eyes
and ears, and they were things that might have
frightened even allies, not to speak of conquered
enemies. When the herald had imposed silence,
Paulus announced in Latin the decisions of the
Senate, along with his own decisions, made on the
advice of his council.
The praetor Gnaeus Octavius - for he too was
there - translated these announcements into
Greek and conveyed them to the Macedonians.
The provisions were as follows: first of all, the
Macedonians were to be free, keeping their own
cities and territories, enjoying their own laws, and
electing annual magistrates; they were to pay to
Roman people half the tax they had paid to their kings.
In the next place Macedonia was to be divided into
four districts; one district, the first division would
consist of the land between the rivers Strymon and
Nessus; and to this division would be added, from
across the Nessus to the east, the villages, fortified
places, and towns which Perseus had held, except
Aenus, Maronea, and Abdera, while on the nearer
side of the Strymon, towards the west, there would
be added all the country of the Bisaltae, including
Heraclea (Heraclea Sintice as it is called). The
second district was to consist of the part bounded
on the east by the River Strymon, excluding Heraclea
Sintice and the Bisaltae - and on the west by the
Axius, and was to include the Paeonians dwelling
near the Axius on the east bank of the river. The
third district comprised the territory enclosed on
the east by the Axius and on the west by the River
Peneus - on the north Mount Bora forms a barrier;
to this division was added the region of Paeonia
which extends along the west bank of the Axius;
Edessa and Beroea were also assigned to this
district. The fourth district was on the other side of
Mount Bora, one part of it bordering on Illyricum,
the other on Epirus. The capitals of the districts,
where their councils were to be held, were these:
for the first district, Amphipolis; for the second,
Thessalonica; for the third, Pella; for the fourth,
Pelagonia. The consul gave orders that a council
for each district should be called in each of these
places, and that in these places money should
be brought in, and magistrates elected.
Next he announced a decision that no one should
have the right of marriage or of dealing in land or
buildings outside the confines of his own district.
Moreover, the mines of gold and silver were not
to be worked, although the working of iron and
copper mines was allowed, the taxon those working
the mines was fixed at half the amount they had
paid to the king. He forbade the use of imported
salt. When the Dardanians asked for the
restoration of Paeonia, on the ground that it had
been theirs and that it adjoined their boundaries,
Paulus announced that freedom was being given
to all those who had been under the rule of King
Perseus. But after refusing them Paeonia he gave
them the right to import salt; he ordered the third
district to convey salt to Stobi in Paeonia, and he
fixed the price of this commodity. He forbade the
Macedonians to cut timber for ships, or to allow
others to do so. The districts with barbarians on
their borders - all the districts, that is, except the
third - were given leave to have armed guards along
their frontiers.
30. The announcement of these provisions on the
first day of the meeting aroused varied feelings.
The unexpected granting of freedom, and the
lightening of the annual tax, raised men's spirits;
but to those whose commercial activities were
interrupted by the division into districts their
country seemed cut into pieces, like an animal
torn into separate parts, each of which needed the others;
so unaware were the Macedonians themselves of
the size of Macedonia, of the ease with which it
could be divided, of the self-sufficiency of each part.
The first district enjoys many advantages; it has the
Bisaltae, first-class fighting men (they live beyond
the Nessus, in the neighbourhood of the Strymon);
it has crops of many kinds peculiar to the region,
it has mines; and the strategic position of Amphipolis
forms a barrier closing all approaches into
Macedonia from the east. The second division has
the extremely populous cities of Thessalonica and
Cassandrea, and it has besides, in Pallene, a
fertile and fruitful territory; it is also provided with
maritime advantages in the shape of the harbours at
Torone, Mount Athos, Aenea, and Acanthus, all in
convenient positions, some facing Thessaly and the
island of Euboea, others looking towards the
Hellespont. The third region has the notable cities of
Edessa, Beroea, and Pella; it includes the warlike
people of the Vettii, besides a large settlement of
Gauls and Illyrians, who are energetic farmers. The
fourth region is inhabited by the Eordaei, the
Lyncestae, and the Pelagonians; added to these
are Atintania, Tymphaeis, and Elimiotis. All this stretch
of country is cold, difficult of cultivation and harsh;
and it has inhabitants of a character resembling the
land; and they are made fiercer by the wild tribesmen
dwelling next to them, who sometimes give them
practice in warfare, sometimes, in times of peace, an
intermixture of their customs. The division of Macedonia
thus demonstrated, by separating the advantages of the
different parts, the greatness of the country as a whole.
31. After the dictation of the scheme for Macedonia,
Paulus gave notice that he would also lay down laws.
He then summoned the Aetolians to appear before him.
In this examination .................................................. .
Livy (Titus Livius), XLV.17 - XLV.31
from LIVY. ROME AND THE MEDITERRANEAN
Translated by HENRY BETTENSON
PENGUIN CLASSICS
For fair use only
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
.....The heart of Real Macedonia was always Greek |
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Nashton
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: A "Black Athenian" case of blatant hypocrisy |
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| Quote: |
He, he, he... Lying? Pretty soon yo'll be joining the ranks of the
"Spirit", in the brain(less) department, with "pearls" like the above.. :-(
It seems to me your mutation has had a very detrimental effect on your
feeble intellect, grkoman. Especially, now, in your old age. Your
comprehension has never been a strong point, but lately, it seems to me
that it has abandoned you completely. It's either that, or, as has been
your "custom", in your haste to hurl BASELESS accusations at anyone
exposing and quashing the propaganda of your "Black
Athena"-"sub-Saharan" masters, you have trouble reading the subject
matter properly. Also, and I have noticed this much, much earlier, you
suffer from dementia. You seem not have even an inkling that this exact
subject matter has been debated on numerous occasions previously. There
is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for you to play the "teacher" again,
mutant-grkoman. You have been told this on countless occasions. Anyhow,
the passage you provide has no relevance to your "argument", nitwit,
since it is NOT related to the original counter-argument: the
translation by Scott-Kilvert. And on top of this, as I point out to you,
the recital by Polibius (also copied in Livy's book) of the Macedonian
king's (Philip V) speech at the confenrence with the Roman general,
CLEARLY tells you that the Macedonians see the Aetolians (and other
"Greeks") as NON Greeks, which makes your "extract" irrelevant at best,
or contrary to your argument.
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Do you post this nonsense out of guilt because you don't currently live
in FYROM, or are you simply a masochist, content on being battered on a
daily basis on your stupidities? |
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