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 Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:43 am Post subject: Alps (2005) |
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There seems to be a resurgence of magnificent touring so I thought
this ride report might inspire others to see these place.
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/2005/
Jobst Brandt |
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Ken Roberts
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Alps (2005) |
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<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote
| Quote: | There seems to be a resurgence of magnificent touring so I thought
this ride report might inspire others to see these place.
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/2005/
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That one starts encouragingly, but finishes in disappointment. I was
cheering all the way to Lago Maggiore and Orta and Biella, but then the
riding -- and your health -- declined.
Are you sure that's the link you intended to give us?
I liked this one better:
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/2004/
I like so many of your route ideas and detailed info, but one big strategic
point in both reports I do not understand: Why do you ride all the way south
thru Italy down to Tende and then ride thru the southern Alps in France?
There's so many uninteresting kilometers on both sides. I think the northern
French alps are way better (or else further south to the Moynenne corniche
road and the hills a little north from Nice). Why not cross some pass
further north, like Colle dell'Agnello, or Maddalena / Larche (which is
kinda pretty and interesting on the Italian side) -- and get more directly
to the prettier riding in the Alpes du Nord?
And along the way south thru western Italy, how could you _not_ climb up Val
Savaranche and across the Col del Nivolet, instead of all that flat riding?
Ken |
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Ken Roberts
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Alps (2005) |
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Col del Nivolet clarification:
There is no complete paved road over Nivolet (to the west of Gran Paradiso,
the highest summit whose base lies completely within Italy). As far as I
know there is a section between the village Pont at the upper (southern) end
of the Valsavaranche road which requires using a hiking trail -- also
several kilometers which are a paved road are closed to normal vehicle use.
So . . .
I'm not suggesting here that anybody else should consider trying to cross
with a bicycle between Col del Nivolet and the Valsavaranche road - (many of
the best views can be obtained by riding up-and-back the south side on a
paved road).
But since Jobst in the last couple of days has vigorously recommended three
other pass crossings that lack paved roads (whether paved or unpaved), I'm
wondering what he thinks about that crossing.
Ken |
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sergio
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Alps (2005) |
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On 22 Ott, 16:47, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
and descended through Isola2000 the
ugliest of
| Quote: | ski damage to the alps. Those are in ride reports that were lost
before modern wrec.bike.rides got going.
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Although I have never seen Isola2000, I have no pleasant memory of the
nearby region along my ride up frpm Nice to Briancon.
Talking about ugly places, is Isola2000 even uglier than Col des
Saisies?
Sergio
Pisa |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Alps (2005) |
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Ken Roberts wrote:
| Quote: | There seems to be a resurgence of magnificent touring so I thought
this ride report might inspire others to see these place.
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http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/2005/
| Quote: | That one starts encouragingly, but finishes in disappointment. I was
cheering all the way to Lago Maggiore and Orta and Biella, but then
the riding -- and your health -- declined. Are you sure that's the
link you intended to give us?
I liked this one better:
|
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/2004/
| Quote: | I like so many of your route ideas and detailed info, but one big
strategic point in both reports I do not understand: Why do you ride
all the way south thru Italy down to Tende and then ride thru the
southern Alps in France? There's so many uninteresting kilometers
on both sides. I think the northern French alps are way better (or
else further south to the Moynenne corniche road and the hills a
little north from Nice). Why not cross some pass further north, like
Colle dell'Agnello, or Maddalena / Larche (which is kinda pretty and
interesting on the Italian side) -- and get more directly to the
prettier riding in the Alpes du Nord?
And along the way south thru western Italy, how could you _not_
climb up Val Savaranche and across the Col del Nivolet, instead of
all that flat riding?
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There are folks along that southern route that I like to see again but
then I've cut across on the Colle dell'Agnello, or Maddalena, Larche
or Porta di Lombarda and descended through Isola2000 the ugliest of
ski damage to the alps. Those are in ride reports that were lost
before modern wrec.bike.rides got going.
Jobst Brandt |
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: Re: Alps (2005) |
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Sergio Servadio wrote:
| Quote: | ... and descended through Isola2000 the ugliest of > ski damage to
the alps. Those are in ride reports that were lost > before modern
wrec.bike.rides got going.
Although I have never seen Isola2000, I have no pleasant memory of the
nearby region along my ride up from Nice to Briancon.
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It's up the hill from Isola and to make sure the skiers can drive
their luxury cars up to 2000m elevation, an autoroute like highway was
built up both sides of the canyon, the south side being more stable
but holding more snow while the north side has avalanches with heavy
snow.
Gotta get there at all costs! As I have often mentioned to my riding
companion, "I smell ski" when a road in the mountains becomes
unusually wide and well cared for in spite of no traffic. We have
such roads here in California, where for instance west-east Hwy4 is
unusually wide but just up to Mount Reba JCT where, of all things, a
short Interstate Hwy I207 makes the connection to the ski area while
Hwy4 (Ebbetts Pass) returns to the forested mountain road that it
formerly was.
| Quote: | Talking about ugly places, is Isola2000 even uglier than Col des
Saisies?
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Similar but "no cigar" (no prize). There was a town Saisies there but
ISOLA200 is completely artificial and dead except in ski season. It
has huge almost black steel tall hotels clustered around parking lots.
Jobst Brandt |
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Ken Roberts
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:24 am Post subject: Re: Alps (2005) |
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<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote
| Quote: | There are folks along that southern route that I like to see again
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That fits perfectly.
| Quote: | I've cut across on the Colle dell'Agnello, or Maddalena, Larche
or Porta di Lombarda and descended through Isola2000 the
ugliest of ski damage to the alps.
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You did not see me ask about Lombarda / Lombarde as a possible crossing.
Riding over it once was enough for me. I guess it could imagine riding there
as an up-and-back ride only on the Italian side, and finishing at that
chapel instead of the pass.
Ken |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:54 am Post subject: Re: Alps (2005) |
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On Oct 20, 4:43 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
| Quote: | There seems to be a resurgence of magnificent touring so I thought
this ride report might inspire others to see these place.
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_A....
Jobst Brandt
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I'm organizing a group of 10 friends for a ride through some of the
roads of the French Alps. We're going to stay in Moutiers for 4
nights before heading towards Alpe d'Huez, and then back over the Col
de la Croix de Fer and south over Col du Galibier. It looks like some
good riding on the maps, though I've never been there before. But
we're going to end our ride in Nice (We're all flying in and out of
Nice), and I'm trying to find someone who can recommend a route south
from Briancon to Nice. Can you help me there??
Thanks, BC Rimbeaux |
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Tim McNamara
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Alps (2005) |
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In article
<274a713f-854e-434f-bf3a-7f94a3c11b1c@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
rimbeaux@aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | On Oct 20, 4:43 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
There seems to be a resurgence of magnificent touring so I thought
this ride report might inspire others to see these place.
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the
_A...
Jobst Brandt
I'm organizing a group of 10 friends for a ride through some of the
roads of the French Alps. We're going to stay in Moutiers for 4
nights before heading towards Alpe d'Huez, and then back over the Col
de la Croix de Fer and south over Col du Galibier. It looks like
some good riding on the maps, though I've never been there before.
But we're going to end our ride in Nice (We're all flying in and out
of Nice), and I'm trying to find someone who can recommend a route
south from Briancon to Nice. Can you help me there??
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There are great choices from Briancon south, but the better choices for
riding into Nice are relatively indirect. Jobst and Sergio would know
them better than I. Here's my experiences in this part of the Alps:
http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/alps2002-1.html |
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Ken Roberts
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: southern Alps of France (was Alps 2005) |
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My first advice is: once you get as far as Embrun or Barcellonette, just
take the train or bus to somewhere around Nice, then enjoy some fun riding
on the corniche roads and lower southern alps around Nice.
_Unless_ it was a big snow season and you're riding late spring / early
summer, so you have views of the snow to enhance the scenery. Otherwise I
guess a benefit of actually _riding_ that section is that you'll better
appreciate the spectacular roads thru some other parts of the Alps on future
trips. If lots of people in your group haven't done much riding in real
mountains before, or live in eastern USA, they'll probably find it very
impressive.
Before skipping to the Sea and the south, I'd guess you'll want to do Col
d'Izoard from Briancon to Guillestre. South from there I didn't find Col
Vars all that interesting, so if you want to ride further, I'd suggest
riding some of the roads above and along the Lac du Serre-Poncon -- Or if
you feel you can handle some steep-ish dirt (and snow?) and a long dark
(icy?) tunnel, perhaps try riding over Col de Parpaillon. Could also ride up
Cime de Bonette or Col Restefond if you feel like you need to say you
accomplished that - (it claims to be the highest or 3rd highest paved pass
in Europe, but many cyclists say it's not a real "pass" -- that the true col
is crossed by a dirt road several hundred meters lower.)
If you want to _ride_ the while way, and you want to go over the high passes
instead of staying in the valleys, then the obvious route is to follow the
"Route des Grandes Alpes" -- with marker signs along the mountain roads (and
an official website). I also tried alternate roads for most of its
stages -- didn't find much obviously better than that route in most of its
southern section (except in the hills closer to Nice).
Some ideas about riding in the hills around Nice here:
http://roberts-1.com/b/v/e/04a/#east_Provence_04nov
Ken |
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Ken Roberts
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: Alps (2005) |
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Tim McNamara wrote
| Quote: | the better choices for riding into Nice are relatively indirect . . .
Here's my experiences in this part of the Alps:
http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/alps2002-1.html
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Looks like you toured lots of pretty roads and some worthy accomplishments.
Reading your report for Day 8, I can see your concern for finding "indirect"
better choices for riding into Nice -- after your experience trying a more
direct approach.
Ken |
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Tim McNamara
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: Re: Alps (2005) |
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In article <aC0Ok.1191$225.130@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>,
"Ken Roberts" <iKen7Roberts7-nn7_no7s@yahoo7.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Tim McNamara wrote
the better choices for riding into Nice are relatively indirect . .
. Here's my experiences in this part of the Alps:
http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/alps2002-1.html
Looks like you toured lots of pretty roads and some worthy
accomplishments.
Reading your report for Day 8, I can see your concern for finding
"indirect" better choices for riding into Nice -- after your
experience trying a more direct approach.
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Yes, that stretch (the D6202 after about Saint-Martin-du-Vars, I think)
did pretty much suck. It was like riding on an interstate except that
Europeans generally seem to have a clue about how to drive around
cyclists. There was generally a wide shoulder in good repair. Once on
the Promenade des Anglais it was much better. I didn't like Nice all
that much, but maybe I just got off to a bad start with it. The folks
of Nice were very friendly and helpful, I'll give them that.
(Interesting thing I noticed about the French, they use the full names
of all streets when giving directions- no shortening street names like
we Americans tend to do).
From other touring reports that I have read, it seems like there would
be nicer options angling into Nice from closer to Italy. Coming in from
Saint-Martin-Vésubie via the D19 looks like it would be better, for
example; I had thought about this in 2002. It would have been hard to
go that way after going through the Gorge du Cians, which really is a
"don't miss this" stretch of road (a descent all the way from Beuil to
the intersection with the D6202 through a narrow slot in the rocks.
Spectacular). We'd really have needed another day to make that work
comfortably, which we didn't have due to the time constraints of one of
the folks on the ride.
http://nicolase.declochez.free.fr/spip/affiche_image.php3?id_document=749
http://nicolase.declochez.free.fr/spip/affiche_image.php3?id_document=750
http://nicolase.declochez.free.fr/spip/affiche_image.php3?id_document=751 |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Alps (2005) |
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Tim McNamara wrote:
| Quote: | the better choices for riding into Nice are relatively indirect...
Here's my experiences in this part of the Alps:
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http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/alps2002-1.html
| Quote: | Looks like you toured lots of pretty roads and some worthy
accomplishments.
Reading your report for Day 8, I can see your concern for finding
"indirect" better choices for riding into Nice -- after your
experience trying a more direct approach.
Yes, that stretch (the D6202 after about Saint-Martin-du-Vars, I
think) did pretty much suck. It was like riding on an interstate
except that Europeans generally seem to have a clue about how to
drive around cyclists. There was generally a wide shoulder in good
repair. Once on the Promenade des Anglais it was much better. I
didn't like Nice all that much, but maybe I just got off to a bad
start with it. The folks of Nice were very friendly and helpful,
I'll give them that. (Interesting thing I noticed about the French,
they use the full names of all streets when giving directions- no
shortening street names like we Americans tend to do).
From other touring reports that I have read, it seems like there
would be nicer options angling into Nice from closer to Italy.
Coming in from Saint-Martin-V?subie via the D19 looks like it would
be better, for example; I had thought about this in 2002. It would
have been hard to go that way after going through the Gorge du
Cians, which really is a "don't miss this" stretch of road (a
descent all the way from Beuil to the intersection with the D6202
through a narrow slot in the rocks. Spectacular). We'd really have
needed another day to make that work comfortably, which we didn't
have due to the time constraints of one of the folks on the ride.
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http://nicolase.declochez.free.fr/spip/affiche_image.php3?id_document=749
http://nicolase.declochez.free.fr/spip/affiche_image.php3?id_document=750
http://nicolase.declochez.free.fr/spip/affiche_image.php3?id_document=751
That looks like the Gorge du Cains alright, but rest assured that the
French HWY department is being pressed to tunnel past these scenic
places as they have on the Roya river below Tende at the Gorge du
Saorge. Gotta get those skiers up the hill without difficulty, They
are city folk after all.
Jobst Brandt |
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sergio
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Alps (2005) |
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On 29 Ott, 15:36, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
| Quote: | There are great choices from Briancon south, but the better choices for
riding into Nice are relatively indirect. Jobst and Sergio would know
them better than I. Here's my experiences in this part of the Alps:
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Thanks for the compliment, but sorry to disappoint you.
In fact I have toured down there only once, back in 1975 I guess,
from the Italian border through Nice up to Bardonecchia.
I did not like it so much, to the point that I never went back to La
Bonette nor to Col de Vars, preferring more modern routes for my
vacations.
Instead, there is a place I like so much close to Briancon on the
valley of La Clairee, just west of Col de l'Echelle:
Nevache!
Check it out, by all means.
Sergio
Pisa |
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sergio
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Alps (2005) |
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On 31 Ott, 13:51, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
| Quote: | In those days, skiing had not come to the region and riding over the
Col d'Iseran revealed a val d'Isère agricultural village with barns
and cows herded down the main street. Jean Claude Killy had not yet
worked his magic on the town that today is one of the most garish ski
towns, an insult to nature and the beautiful mountains.
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Since you, Jobst, mention cows there aren't so many of them any longer
on the Val d'Isere side, but ... .
But on the other side, the good side of the Iseran nowadays in my
opinion, if one lodges at Bonneval sur Arc there is a good chance he
has got to fight to get drinking water from the fountains right in the
middle of the village.
That happened to me only a couple of years ago: to struggle against a
few thirsty cows.
Sergio
Pisa |
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