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VtSkier
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 Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
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gogu wrote:
| Quote: | Ο "VtSkier" <VtSkier@nospam.net> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:6oil97F3qb8iU1@mid.individual.net...
gogu wrote:
Ο "Martin Edwards" <big_mart_98@yahoo.com> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:TRPUk.152688$yK5.126632@newsfe24.ams2...
imipak wrote:
I'll drink to that. My uncle did time against EOKA. At the time we
Brits regarded them purely as terrorists, but they are now seen in a
rose coloured rearview mirror.
I really fail to see with what *moral* right your uncle and the rest
of the British occupiers were in Cyprus!
I fail to see why the Cypriots wouldn't have to fight to get out of
*THEIR* country the occupiers!
I fail to see why the Cypriots were regarded as terrorists and not
the British!
And don't forget that the same happened in Palestine/Israel where the
Jews were regarded by the British as terrorists, too!
And in the US!
And in many African countries!
So I am sorry but in the world’s conscience the British were the
invaders/occupiers/terrorists and not the local people!
I've posted this quote before and it is still true:
"The difference between a terrorist and a patriot
depends on which side you are on."
I'll agree with that!
and its corollary:
"The difference between a terrorist and a patriot
depends on which side won."
I'll LOL with that:-)
A good one!
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Thank you <takes a bow>. |
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Agamemnon
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
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<pbowles@aol.com> wrote in message
news:fa7aab5f-df08-4b58-9c73-92db28e73c04@q30g2000prq.googlegroups.com...
On 19 Nov, 12:02, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
| Quote: | pbow...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a81533e3-ce3c-4870-83cd-30f6989d9ada@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On 19 Nov, 09:47, "gogu" <RuminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
"Martin Edwards" <big_mart...@yahoo.com>
news:TRPUk.152688$yK5.126632@newsfe24.ams2...
imipak wrote:
I'll drink to that. My uncle did time against EOKA. At the time we
Brits
regarded them purely as terrorists, but they are now seen in a rose
coloured rearview mirror.
I really fail to see with what *moral* right your uncle and the rest of
the
British occupiers were in Cyprus!
Not relevant. Firstly, politics has never been an issue of morality in
any case - national borders and territories are always an act of
historical accident and political convenience; in the case of Cyprus,
the island was ceded to the British by treaty - Britain was never an
"invader".
Cyprus was an still is a Greek island and has been Greek for the past 3700
years of recorded history.
|
<<<It's only been Greek in the sense that its population is ethnically
Greek - as far as nationality goes, it hasn't been Greek since the
Assyrians took control of the island in 790 BC, unless you count the>>>
YOU ARE A SYSTEMATIC LIAR!
The Assyrians NEVER ruled Cyprus. In 411 BC Evagoras the king of Salamis and
ruled of all Cyprus conquered the whole of Palestine, Egypt and Anatolia,
and was on the verge of overthrowing the Pertain empire.
<<<Byzantine period. And when Britain offered the island to Greece in
1914, the Greeks rejected the offer. Presumably Greece didn't want it>>>
They did not reject the offer. Britain reneged on the offer after Greece
entered WW1.
<<<in 1960 either, since Grivas never got his wish that the island would
become part of Greece.>>>
BULLSHIT! YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE ABOUT HISTORY.
The British were illegally occupying so one
<<<British occupation of Cyprus was never illegal; secondly, even if it>>>
YES IT WAS! The British occupation never had the consent of the Cyprus
people and was therefore illegal. Under the UN Charter Britain was
considered an occupying power. All occupation is considered illegal without
a UN mandate. Britain didn't have one.
the Cypriots, 95% of which at the time the British occupation
| Quote: | began spoke Greek.
|
<<<Who cares what they spoke? 100% of the population of Singapore speaks
Bahasa Melayu, and most Singaporeans are ethnic Malays. That doesn't
mean Singapore ought to belong to Malaysia - in fact, the Singaporeans
gained independence from Malaysia in the first place.>>>
BULLSHIT! The people of Cyprus spoke Greek and identified themselves and
Greeks and considered Cyprus to be as much a part of Greece and Crete,
Rhodes and Lemnos and every other Greek island.
| Quote: | I fail to see why the Cypriots wouldn't have to fight to get out of
*THEIR*
country the occupiers!
Tricky question - what constitutes "*THEIR* country"? Prior to
independence from Britain in the late 20th Century Cyprus had never
been an independent state, just a part of numerous larger ones - and
ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT! Cyprus was an independent state and had its own kings
and
democratic rulers for thousands of years.
|
<<<No it didn't.>>>
YES IT DID! YOU ARE A SYSTEMATIC LIAR!
The Cypriot king Evagoras the
| Quote: | Great even ruled directly over Palestine, Egypt and Anatolia and was
regarded as an equal by the king of Persia.
by the time of independence from Britain, none of those larger ones
other than Britain still existed. You might as well ask why the Isle
of Wight shouldn't fight to get the "occupiers" out of their
"country".
MORE BULLSHIT! Cyprus was ruled by its own native Greek kings for over
1000
years and then became part of the Greek empire of Alexander, then part of
the Greek Byzantine Empire, then it was a neutral independent Greek state
again before it rejoined the Greek Byzantine Empire and was then occupied
by
the Franks.
|
<<<You've missed out the Assyrians, Egyptians, Persians, English>>>
BULLSHIT! The Assyrians never ruled Cyprus and neither did the Egyptians
(unless you mean the Macedonian Greeks who ruled Egypt) or Persians.
c.1630 Aerias (native Greek)
c.1580 Amathus (son of the above)
c.1550 Kethimus (son of Ion, proto-Ionian Greek)
c.1500 Pygmalion (son of Belus, proto-Danaian Greek)
c.1460 Paphos (son of the above)
c.1400 Kinyras or Kypros (son of the above)
c.1360 Pygmalion (probably Abimelech II king of the Philistines, Pelasgian
Greeks)
c.1310 Kinyras (descendent of Cecrops king of Athens)
<sons of the above>
1220 Kinyras (native Greek allied to Agamemnon and Menelaus, sent ships to
Troy)
1181 BC Agapenor at Paphos
1175 BC Teucer at Salamis
.... native Greek kings of 12 cities descended from the above.
c.727 BC Eleuleus king of Salamis (native Greek)
c.680 BC Ten Cypriot kings including Pylagoras king of Chytroi, Eteander
king of Paphos and Damasus king of Kurion assist Esarhaddon the king of
Assyria in his campaign against Egypt. (all native Greeks)
.... other native Greek kings of Cyprus decended from Teucer
568 Evelthon (native Greek)
522 Siromus (native Greek)
511 Chersis (native Greek)
500 Gorgus (native Greek)
490 Onsilus (native Greek)
489 Gorgus (native Greek)
480 Philaon (native Greek)
465 Nicodemus (native Greek)
& Lacharides (native Greek)
450 Eventhes (native Greek)
440 Abdemon (Phoenician usurper at Salamis)
411 Evagoras (native Greek) king of all Cyprus, conquered Palestine, Egypt
and Anatolia. Regarded by Artaxerxes king of Persia.
374 Nicocles (native Greek)
368 Evagoras II (native Greek)
351-332 Pnytagoras (native Greek) assisted Alexander in the siege of Tyre.
331 Nicocreon (native Greek appointed Satrap by the Macedonian Greeks)
310 Menelaos (native Greek appointed Satrap by the Macedonian Greeks)
306-301 Antigonus (native Greek appointed Satrap by the Macedonian Greeks)
<to the Ptolemys> (Macedonian Greeks)
<<<(admittedly, only for one year), Venetians and Ottomans along the way.
Periods under Greek or Byzantine rule after the Assyrian invasion were
brief, and it was always a part of a larger homogenous Greek state
during these periods - I never said Cyprus had never been Greek, I
said it had never been an independent nation. As for its brief period
of neutrality, from the chronology given on www.greece.org, it doesn't
appear to have had any rulers at all during this time.>>>
YOU ARE A LIAR! I complied that chronology and listed all the above kings.
Under the Byzantines, Cyprus was ruled by Greek emperors who devolved power
to democratically elected governors. There was NEVER an Assyrian invasion of
Cyprus. Cyprus was an equal ally of Assyria and could even call on Assyria
for assistance.
http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Chronology.htm
| Quote: | "Most common definitions of terrorism include only those acts which
are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an
ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately
target or disregard the safety of non-combatants."
Attacking media offices as part of an independence struggle, with a
stated aim of making international headlines qualifies - occupying an
IT WAS THE TURKS WHO BLEW UP THEIR OWN MEDIA OFFICE YOU STUPID IGNORANT
MORON, BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION!
|
<<<Who said anything about a Turkish media office? I was referring to an
attack against a British broadcasting centre, one of the uprising's
first targets before EOKA confined its activities to military targets:
"The military campaign officially began on April 1, 1955. On this date
EOKA launched simultaneous attacks on the British controlled Cyprus
Broadcasting Station in Nicosia (led by Markos Drakos), on the British
Army's Wolseley barracks and on targets in Famagusta (led by Grigoris
Afxentiou)." - Wikipedia>>>
Oh, so they threw a load of rotten cabbages at it and tore down a few
fences.
| Quote: | island doesn't. Based on Wikipedia's description of the EOKA's
Wikipedia cannot be trusted on giving an accurate portrayal of EOKAs
activities whatsoever.
|
<<<Ah, so EOKA didn't confine its activities to military targets?>>>
Yes it did. Imbecile.
The majority of EOKAs members were school kids and
| Quote: | its activates were mainly confined to writing graffiti and pelting British
soldiers with eggs and rotten vegetables. It was a campaign of civil
disobedience not terrorism.
|
<<<EOKA specifically rejected non-violent civil disobedience - you're
apparently thinking of AKEL, a group which opposed EOKA's methods and
favoured agitating Cypriot independence through civil disobedience.>>>
BULLSHIT! The majority of EOKAs members were school kids and its activates
were mainly confined to writing graffiti and pelting British soldiers with
eggs and rotten vegetables. It was a campaign of civil disobedience not
terrorism.
| Quote: | Restricting his targets to soldiers just seems to have been a spurious
effort for military man Grivas to feel a bit less cowardly about
having people shot in the back - and perhaps, since he wanted to make
international news, because it was more likely to evoke sympathy that
way. There's certainly no sign that he had any particular moral reason
for not targeting civilians.
IMBECILE! Grivas didn't target civilians.
|
<<<Read the above again and you'll see that I said that. The point was
that he didn't target them out of pragmatism and possibly a former
soldier's archaic sense of honour, not because he was opposed to
terrorist methods (which plainly he wasn't). If you're willing to kill
people who can't fight back, on moral grounds it makes sod all
difference what the target's job description is.>>>
IDIOT! The occupiers of Cyprus were British soldiers not their wives and
children. Grivas didn't target civilians.
| Quote: | And don't forget that the same happened in Palestine/Israel where the
Jews
were regarded by the British as terrorists, too!
You mean you're seriously suggesting that blowing up hotels full of
civilians wasn't an act of terrorism? Quite the reverse, it was
terrorism in its most literal sense - the stated objective was to make
It is an example of the British policy of divide and rule backfiring on
themselves. They armed the Jewish minority and incited it to slaughter and
ethnically cleansed the Palestinian majority and then the Jews turned on
their handlers.
|
<<<Actually, at the time the British police actively supporting the Arabs
in peacekeeping operations. But that's not the point I was making -
the point was that the Jewish resistance movement indeed involved acts
of terrorism; IIRC Israel today acknowledges as much and even takes
pride in the fact that its early heads of state were former
terrorists.>>>
The Jewish terrorists were created by the British in the first place.
| Quote: | And in the US!
Not the case - the term 'terrorist' didn't even exist at the time, and
the British at the time called the American uprising a revolution.
What rubbish. The activities they engaged in, including crossing the
Atlantic and terrorising English villages
|
<<<"Crossing the Atlantic and terrorising English villages"?>>>
That's what the guy who became the founder of the US Navy did.
would be regarded as terrorism by
<<<Not relevant to what I'm saying - gogu asserted that the British
regarded American revolutionaries as terrorists. They didn't, because
they had no concept of terrorism, even had the Americans been engaged
in acts which would fall under the modern definition.>>>
RUBBISH! The Americans attacked civilians on the British mainland who had no
direct personal connection to the British occupation of America.
| Quote: | So I am sorry but in the worlds conscience the British were the
invaders/occupiers/terrorists and not the local people!
This demonstrates the flaw in your argument by itself - the idea that
invaders/occupiers are synonymous with terrorists is untenable.
No it isn't. Given that it has been proven that the British armed
terrorist
groups the British must be regarded as terrorist themselves.
|
<<<Look again at the definition of the above where terrorism is defined
as 'only those acts which..." In any case, I can find no source
claiming that Britain armed the TMT, which seems to have been supplied>>>
BBC Radio 4's "Document" 23/1/2006
http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Treason3.htm
<<<by Turkey, and even if they had been the TMT claimed to have been set
up to counter the acts of EOKA - allowing the British to claim with
justification that any support they provided was intended for anti-
terror operations, not for any terrorist acts the TMT went on to
perform themselves.>>>
BULLSHIT! The first attacks of the TMT began AFTER EOKA had been dismantle
by the British and disbanded. The TMT was created to murder Greek Cypriots
and any Turkish Cypriots who supported independence.
Even without
| Quote: | that by your definition the British were still terrorists.
|
The people whose
| Quote: | countries the British invaded and subjugated were all non-combatants.
|
<<<That would fit one part of the definition - and that, as I've pointed
out, the most trivial part. British actions weren't undertaken in
order to incite fear for the purposes of achieving an ideological
goal, and in Cyprus there was no invasion. In fact they replaced a
government you, gogu and others have previously moaned about being
unjust and unwanted in the region.>>>
And instead of bringing democracy to Cyprus or appointing native Greeks to
administrative positions including the police and judiciary, the British
used the 5% Turkish speaking minority to oppress the Greek majority by
giving them all the position of power. |
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Agamemnon
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
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"choro" <choro@tvco.net> wrote in message
news:OOTUk.108738$Bk7.13670@newsfe29.ams2...
| Quote: | pbowles@aol.com wrote:
On 19 Nov, 09:47, "gogu" <RuminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
"Martin Edwards" <big_mart...@yahoo.com>
news:TRPUk.152688$yK5.126632@newsfe24.ams2...
imipak wrote:
I'll drink to that. My uncle did time against EOKA. At the time we
Brits
regarded them purely as terrorists, but they are now seen in a rose
coloured rearview mirror.
I really fail to see with what *moral* right your uncle and the rest of
the
British occupiers were in Cyprus!
Not relevant. Firstly, politics has never been an issue of morality in
any case - national borders and territories are always an act of
historical accident and political convenience; in the case of Cyprus,
the island was ceded to the British by treaty - Britain was never an
"invader".
I fail to see why the Cypriots wouldn't have to fight to get out of
*THEIR*
country the occupiers!
Tricky question - what constitutes "*THEIR* country"? Prior to
independence from Britain in the late 20th Century Cyprus had never
been an independent state, just a part of numerous larger ones - and
by the time of independence from Britain, none of those larger ones
other than Britain still existed. You might as well ask why the Isle
of Wight shouldn't fight to get the "occupiers" out of their
"country".
I fail to see why the Cypriots were regarded as terrorists and not the
British!
Because the British didn't go around assassinating people, conducting
sabotage and attacking media offices? Terrorism has a specific
meaning. Wikipedia:
"Most common definitions of terrorism include only those acts which
are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an
ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately
target or disregard the safety of non-combatants."
Attacking media offices as part of an independence struggle, with a
stated aim of making international headlines qualifies - occupying an
island doesn't. Based on Wikipedia's description of the EOKA's
actions, it's equivocal whether they strictly fit the definition
"deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants", but
this is a pretty artificial distinction in any case - assassinating a
soldier who hasn't had a chance to defend himself isn't any different
practically from assassinating a civilian, and in the specific case of
Cyprus British rule wasn't even based on military occupation.
Restricting his targets to soldiers just seems to have been a spurious
effort for military man Grivas to feel a bit less cowardly about
having people shot in the back - and perhaps, since he wanted to make
international news, because it was more likely to evoke sympathy that
way. There's certainly no sign that he had any particular moral reason
for not targeting civilians.
Aha! But that's where you are wrong. EOKA did rpt did target civilians and
not only British civilians but also Greek Cypriot as well as Turkish
Cypriot civilians. EOKA was a terrorist organization, pure and simple!
|
NO IT DID NOT!
| Quote: |
Greek Cypriots were scared shitless (if you will pardon the expression) by
EOKA. In fact EOKA was not making any headway until it first absolutely
terrorized the Greek Cypriot community until people were scared of even
whispering their opinions. The ground had ears!
|
So speaks the genocide denying Turk and proven holocaust denier.
| Quote: |
In my opinion Makarios who drew the wrath of the British (as well as of
the Turks, I am afraid to say) was in my personal opinion the far lesser
evil than Grivas, the military head of EOKA, the terrorist organization.
But he was completely wrong in thinking that he could tear up the
International Agreements under which Cyprus gained independence for the
first time in its history in 1960. Perhaps success had gone to his head
but Greek Cypriots shot themselves in the foot by ripping those agreements
in 1963 within three years of their signing.
It has become fashionable now among Greek Cypriots to blame Makarios for
everything. They still cannot see how they did their "cause" no good by
succumbing to the enticing siren call of extreme nationalism. Cyprus,
which had been part of the Ottoman Empire for four centuries before it was
leased to the British at the end of the 19th century, with its sizable
Turkish Cypriot minority was after all only 40 miles from Turkey's
southern coast. In fact one can see the Turkish mountains on the horizon
from the northern shores of Cyprus. They still cannot grasp the
significance and importance of the existence of the Turkish mainland a
stone's throw from Cyprus with its land mass and population seven times
that of Greece which lies some 600 miles west of Cyprus.
|
France is some 20 miles south of Britain. Does that means that Britain
belongs to France?
Do Cuba, Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago belong to the United States? Does
Greenland belong to Canada? Does the Republic of Ireland belong to Britain?
IDIOT!
| Quote: |
It is a pity that through terrorism hotheads always win the day in such
circumstances to the detriment of all.
--
choro
*****
And don't forget that the same happened in Palestine/Israel where the
Jews
were regarded by the British as terrorists, too!
You mean you're seriously suggesting that blowing up hotels full of
civilians wasn't an act of terrorism? Quite the reverse, it was
terrorism in its most literal sense - the stated objective was to make
the British feel unsafe in order to force them out. It's irrelevant
whether the people involved had a legitimate grievance against a
government. Plenty of people would say that the US has no right to
station military forces in Saudi Arabia. That doesn't imply that
flying planes into buildings is a justified act of reprisal.
And in the US!
Not the case - the term 'terrorist' didn't even exist at the time, and
the British at the time called the American uprising a revolution.
So I am sorry but in the worlds conscience the British were the
invaders/occupiers/terrorists and not the local people!
This demonstrates the flaw in your argument by itself - the idea that
invaders/occupiers are synonymous with terrorists is untenable.
Phil |
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Agamemnon
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
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"gogu" <RruminiiSugPulaL@Greci.com> wrote in message
news:ovWdnY5SAoNhubnUnZ2dnUVZ8umdnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | ? <pbowles@aol.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:9acc9659-ba3d-46b1-a677-0c7e3f3a5207@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On 19 Nov, 12:40, choro <ch...@tvco.net> wrote:
pbow...@aol.com wrote:
On 19 Nov, 09:47, "gogu" <RuminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
"Martin Edwards" <big_mart...@yahoo.com>
news:TRPUk.152688$yK5.126632@newsfe24.ams2...
imipak wrote:
It has become fashionable now among Greek Cypriots to blame Makarios for
everything. They still cannot see how they did their "cause" no good by
succumbing to the enticing siren call of extreme nationalism.
How much choice are they likely to have had, especially if EOKA was
engaged in the tactics you suggest?
Please ask the Turkish TROLL to make a distinction between EOKA A and EOKA
B.
Two different periods with different actions and different popular
support!
EOKA A was OK, EOKA B was not!
But the Turkish TROLL and his alike do not like to make the difference
because this way it's easier to denigrate *all* the EOKA cause!
|
And let's not forget that EOKA B was created by the American CIA to murder
President Makarios (on the orders of Henry Kissinger at the same time he was
ordering the murder of every head of state of the Non Aligned Movement to
which Cyprus belonged) to support the Turks by partitioning Cyprus in
accordance with the Acheson plan which Makarios rejected.
| Quote: | Also let's not forget the TRRORRIST actions of the Turkish MIT! (the
Turkish TROLL conveniently says nothing about it;-)).
Typical of fanatics and extremists. |
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imipak
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
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On Nov 19, 12:34pm, "gogu" <RuminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
| Quote: | But even so, the numbers are not "comparable" as you may see as the ratio is
1:3!
|
The numbers are so small (hey, I had two great uncles die in World War
I) that ratios don't really tell the whole picture. A shade under
1,500 "missing" on the side of the Greeks, a shade over 500 "missing"
on the side of the Turks. Yes, that's about 1:3 as a ratio, assuming
no fog of war, completely accurate statistics, people declaring their
actual nationality, mixed/dual nationals being identified
appropriately, that people have been honest, and so on, and only
considers people who are "knowable" (Gypsies and Travelers who
disappear are unlikely to be listed). Ignoring that, though, compare
it to the difference in people "going missing" in Bosnia, Croatia,
Spain, Argentina, or other places where "disappearing" has happened in
the last 50-100 years. It won't be nearly as even. Probably the
closest parallel would be Korean War, where "disappearing" became
rather too common.
Now, let us examine the argument that some of those killed and
vanished in reprisals were "enemy combatants" and/or terrorists. First
off, having people just "vanish" is usually a good indicator that they
weren't killed in the heat of battle. Second, under such conditions,
there is a very hazy line between "justifiable homicide" (which I
don't believe really exists) and a "war crime". That is not for
individuals or even individual countries to decide - that's a matter
for the International Court of Justice (and prior to that, the World
Court). When individual countries make such decisions, you get
kangaroo court which decides according to what is politically
advisable, not according to the merits of the case.
Now, you'll notice that I don't believe in "justifiable homicide". I
don't believe in killing another human being for any cause, under any
condition, directly or indirectly, through action or inaction. Now,
this does create plenty of problems, as situations such as the
invasion of Cyprus (and I do call it an invasion), where an attempt to
honor the belief in one sense will violate it in another. Strictly
speaking, all beliefs have such contradictions in them, and the true
judge of a human being is how they handle such internal conflicts.
Anyone can handle an external conflict, those are easy, and there is
nothing in an external conflict that can impact the you within. It is
the internal conflicts that really define you, that can strengthen you
or destroy you utterly. A shattered mind in a healthy body can do
nothing. A healthy mind in a shattered body can tower over the world.
I also draw from Lord of the Rings: "Deserves death? I daresay he
does. I daresay there are many who who live who deserve death. I
daresay there are many who are dead who deserve life. Can you give
them that also? Then do not be so quick to judge." I also draw on a
statement by Albert Pierrepoint - Britain's most "efficient"
executioner: "I have come to the conclusion that executions solve
nothing, and are only an antiquated relic of a primitive desire for
revenge which takes the easy way and hands over the responsibility for
revenge to other people...The trouble with the death penalty has
always been that nobody wanted it for everybody, but everybody
differed about who should get off."
These two statements - one fictional, one factual - form the core of
my belief that the death penalty (whether by the courts or by a lynch
mob) is not about justice, or about the needs of society, but is
solely about a use of hate to achieve a temporary cathexis.
Eventually, the cathexis fades and you'll just have to deal with
whatever you didn't deal with before. Hate cannot be cured by adding
more hate.
And, finally, I draw on history. Societies that form out of
destructive mindsets must maintain destructive mindsets if they are to
survive their own internal turmoil. Eventually, the pressures will
cause them to become self-destructive. Societies that form out of
peaceful conditions have no internal turmoil and can survive in a
stable manner indefinitely. Those that form somewhere between the two
(which is most of them) will have some turmoil and some self-
destructive tendencies but can learn to cope with them, though they
can never be completely at ease within themselves. This is the biggest
lesson history teaches us. Utopia is never truly achievable, but the
more violent the formative experience, the further away from any sort
of ideal that nation can ever be.
The attitudes, hatreds and blood feuds that eventually blew up in the
form of the Balkans War were the result of hundreds, possibly
thousands, of years of reprisals and revenge. Instead of figuring out
how to cope with that hatred and defuse it as far as possible, it was
allowed to build until it reached an explosive point. Serbia then
ignited the powder keg, with assistance from Greece.
| Quote: | My point, however, stands and stands unanswered: Is Agamemnon
attempting to use this tragic set of events in order to assert his
(somewhat unique) view of world history?
Pleeeease, I am not Agamemnon:-)
|
Oh, I understand that. To you, and other genuine Greek Cypriots with
human intelligence, I will repeat that to have this sort of a
discussion as a result of a twisted and evil action by Agamemnon is a
desecration of all that is sacred and precious, and a violation of the
memory of those who suffered and died.
| Quote: | Is he trying to use this
event to "prove" that the Greeks are the only rightful masters of the
world?
Don't you have similar loonies in the UK?!
|
Yes, but we usually isolate them in the House of Commons where they
can't do any damage. (We used to isolate them in the House of Lords,
along with next-of-kin, on the theory that insanity was probably
hereditary, but the Republicans in Britain completely missed the point
and wrecked that method.) |
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Mitsos**
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
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|
gogu wrote:
| Quote: | Ο "VtSkier" <VtSkier@nospam.net> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:6oil97F3qb8iU1@mid.individual.net...
gogu wrote:
Ο "Martin Edwards" <big_mart_98@yahoo.com> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:TRPUk.152688$yK5.126632@newsfe24.ams2...
imipak wrote:
I'll drink to that. My uncle did time against EOKA. At the time we
Brits regarded them purely as terrorists, but they are now seen in a
rose coloured rearview mirror.
I really fail to see with what *moral* right your uncle and the rest
of the British occupiers were in Cyprus!
I fail to see why the Cypriots wouldn't have to fight to get out of
*THEIR* country the occupiers!
I fail to see why the Cypriots were regarded as terrorists and not
the British!
And don't forget that the same happened in Palestine/Israel where the
Jews were regarded by the British as terrorists, too!
And in the US!
And in many African countries!
So I am sorry but in the world’s conscience the British were the
invaders/occupiers/terrorists and not the local people!
I've posted this quote before and it is still true:
"The difference between a terrorist and a patriot
depends on which side you are on."
I'll agree with that!
and its corollary:
"The difference between a terrorist and a patriot
depends on which side won."
I'll LOL with that:-)
A good one!
|
Terrorism is the means of spreading fear among the population through
means of violence. Often by bombings of railway, buses or other public
facilities. See London subway bombings and 911. Both action had heavy
government involvement and where terrorist acts performed by their own
government in order to excuse the invasion of Afghanistan, Iraq and the
dismantling of fundamental civic rights. |
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gogu
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:22 am Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
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? "imipak" <imipak@yahoo.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:15741338-a33a-4f0e-a838-3da4839e606f@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | On Nov 19, 6:29 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
Sorry but I can't debate sophistry!
"There was not an independent country named Cyprus", "England was there
by
right because it inherited Cyprus from X" and so on!
Come on!
Cyprus, to me, was, is, and always has been, a country in and of its
own right. It has been conquered by many other countries, but the
essence of what is Cyprus is whole and independent. Neither Britain,
nor Turkey nor Greece have ever had any moral claim to it.
|
Please read carefully what I wrote!
I *never* talked about the "moral" (or any other kind of) right/claim of
Greece, Turkey or Britain over Cyprus!
I clearly talked about the moral right of the...*Cypriots" -and only them-
(being of Turkish or Greek ethnic background) over their own land! |
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Agamemnon
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:32 am Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
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|
"imipak" <imipak@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2dd5e915-6a3e-4e54-982f-a082c1d6509d@a17g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 19, 6:14 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
| Quote: | ? "imipak" <imi...@yahoo.com> ?????? ???
??????news:ad9e76ea-ba06-4216-80be-ebff788acfd4@c36g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
Turkey has done many evil things over the millennia,
but so has every other nation, Greece included. (If you want to use
recent examples, then in recent war crimes investigations, there is
evidence that a comparable number of innocent Turks were murdered by
Greek Cypriots after the division as there were innocent Greeks who
were murdered by Turkish Cypriots. No hands are clean.)
I don't deny the fact because in a war both parts are doing wrong things
but
I'd be quite interested in seeing an unbiased source stating that the
number
of the "dead Turks after the division" is comparable to that of the dead
Greeks!
I am also challenging the fact that *these* Turks were killed *after* the
division of the island!
As I said, during a war time there are killings from both parts but
*after*
the ceasefire??!!! I think not!
I'd like to see an independent and unbiased source please.
BTW, AFAIK it was *only* Turkey condemned for similar things by the UN and
there is a resolution for that regarding *only* Turkey!
|
<<<Ok, it's hard to prove it was strictly after the division, but the
accounts given by the BBC do indicate some percentage were.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6166560.stm
According to the article: "Some 1,500 Greek Cypriots and 500 Turkish
Cypriots are officially registered as missing on Cyprus, never seen
since fighting broke out between the two communities in the 1960s."
This is information from the United Nations Committee on Missing
Persons, which I assume all parties will accept is about as
independent and unbiased as sources are likely to get.
The Cyprus Committee on Missing Persons can be found here:
http://www.cmp-cyprus.org/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=1307
The Guardian's piece is somewhat more emotional, but they're one of
the most independent of British newspapers.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/15/cyprus
And another BBC story.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6177505.stm
These make it clear that there are mass graves on both sides and that
there was killing after peace broke out (although it does not show how
much).>>>
What the hell are you talking about? Yes Greek Cypriot refugees were
murdered by the Turks after the cease fire was declared including Tassos
Isaac and Solomos Solomou who were murder by members of the Turkish
occupation regime and Turkish government in front of the worlds media and
Kutlu Adali a Turkish Cypriot journalist was also murdered by the Turkish
occupation regime, but not one Turk or Turkish Cypriot was harmed by the
Greek Cypriots at any time, unless they were soldiers. There is no peace on
Cyprus and there will not be until the Turkish occupation ends and all
Turkish soldiers and Turkish colonists return to Turkey and the Greek
Cypriots get their land back.
The figure of 500 claimed by the Turks reefers to TMT terrorists (illegally
armed by the British) who were killed in the Turkish rebellion of 1963/4 by
the Cyprus National Guard which was given a UN Security Council mandate to
rout them out by any means, and most of that number is complete fiction. 300
Greek Cypriots died because of those terrorists in 1963/4.
<<<My point, however, stands and stands unanswered: Is Agamemnon
attempting to use this tragic set of events in order to assert his
(somewhat unique) view of world history? Is he trying to use this
event to "prove" that the Greeks are the only rightful masters of the
world? Is he trying to manipulate and use YOUR feelings and YOUR
losses, in a concerted effort to rewrite history, where highly
selective use of facts have failed to do this for him?>>>
IDIOT! |
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gogu
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
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|
? "imipak" <imipak@yahoo.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:2dd5e915-6a3e-4e54->982f-a082c1d6509d@a17g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | On Nov 19, 6:14 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
I don't deny the fact because in a war both parts are doing wrong things
but
I'd be quite interested in seeing an unbiased source stating that the
number
of the "dead Turks after the division" is comparable to that of the dead
Greeks!
I am also challenging the fact that *these* Turks were killed *after* the
division of the island!
As I said, during a war time there are killings from both parts but
*after*
the ceasefire??!!! I think not!
I'd like to see an independent and unbiased source please.
BTW, AFAIK it was *only* Turkey condemned for similar things by the UN
and
there is a resolution for that regarding *only* Turkey!
Ok, it's hard to prove it was strictly after the division, but the
accounts given by the BBC do indicate some percentage were.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6166560.stm
According to the article: "Some 1,500 Greek Cypriots and 500 Turkish
Cypriots are officially registered as missing on Cyprus, never seen
since fighting broke out between the two communities in the 1960s."
This is information from the United Nations Committee on Missing
Persons, which I assume all parties will accept is about as
independent and unbiased as sources are likely to get.
|
First of all, I don't consider a radio/TV station reportage an authority on
such matters and an unbiased source.
As I am sure you know that was proved many times in the past, even with BBC.
But even so, the numbers are not "comparable" as you may see as the ratio is
1:3!
Further, these are the "desaparecidos" *during* the invasion, thus the war!
No "after", no nothing.
| Quote: | These make it clear that there are mass graves on both sides and that
there was killing after peace broke out (although it does not show how
much).
|
I am not sure at all that the above reportages prove the "after" theory...
| Quote: | My point, however, stands and stands unanswered: Is Agamemnon
attempting to use this tragic set of events in order to assert his
(somewhat unique) view of world history?
|
Pleeeease, I am not Agamemnon:-)
| Quote: | Is he trying to use this
event to "prove" that the Greeks are the only rightful masters of the
world?
|
Don't you have similar loonies in the UK?!
| Quote: | Is he trying to manipulate and use YOUR feelings and YOUR
losses, in a concerted effort to rewrite history, where highly
selective use of facts have failed to do this for him?
|
People today are not so easily manipulated by the Agamemnons of this world! |
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gogu
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:40 am Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
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|
? "gogu" <RuminiiSugPulaL@Greci.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:IcCdneR_YfLq5bnUnZ2dnUVZ8judnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | ? "imipak" <imipak@yahoo.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:2dd5e915-6a3e-4e54->982f-a082c1d6509d@a17g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 19, 6:14 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
I don't deny the fact because in a war both parts are doing wrong things
but
I'd be quite interested in seeing an unbiased source stating that the
number
of the "dead Turks after the division" is comparable to that of the dead
Greeks!
I am also challenging the fact that *these* Turks were killed *after*
the
division of the island!
As I said, during a war time there are killings from both parts but
*after*
the ceasefire??!!! I think not!
I'd like to see an independent and unbiased source please.
BTW, AFAIK it was *only* Turkey condemned for similar things by the UN
and
there is a resolution for that regarding *only* Turkey!
Ok, it's hard to prove it was strictly after the division, but the
accounts given by the BBC do indicate some percentage were.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6166560.stm
According to the article: "Some 1,500 Greek Cypriots and 500 Turkish
Cypriots are officially registered as missing on Cyprus, never seen
since fighting broke out between the two communities in the 1960s."
This is information from the United Nations Committee on Missing
Persons, which I assume all parties will accept is about as
independent and unbiased as sources are likely to get.
|
| Quote: | First of all, I don't consider a radio/TV station reportage an authority
on such matters and an unbiased source.
As I am sure you know that was proved many times in the past, even with
BBC.
But even so, the numbers are not "comparable" as you may see as the ratio
is 1:3!
Further, these are the "desaparecidos" *during* the invasion, thus the
war!
No "after", no nothing.
|
Correction!
Wrong period my friend, here if I am not mistaken we were talking of the
Turkish invasion of 1974, not the events of 1964! |
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Stephen Wilson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:43 am Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
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|
"Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:NK2dneal_6566rnUnZ2dnUVZ8rydnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
| Quote: | There is no peace on Cyprus and there will not be until the Turkish
occupation ends and all Turkish soldiers and Turkish colonists return to
Turkey and the Greek Cypriots get their land back.
|
Idiot. There will be no peace there because idiots like you don't want
peace. Turkish Cypriots versus Greek Cypriots. They're as bad as each other. |
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Stephen Wilson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:47 am Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
|
|
"gogu" <RuminiiSugPulaL@Greci.com> wrote in message
news:IcCdneR_YfLq5bnUnZ2dnUVZ8judnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
Is he trying to use this
event to "prove" that the Greeks are the only rightful masters of the
world?
Don't you have similar loonies in the UK?!
|
Oh yeah. There are loonies the world over. Britain can't make up its mind
whether it's American or European. It can't even agree about being British.
Recently, there was a story in the news about a council recommending that
the word "British" should not be used because it might offend people who
think of themselves as English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish. So much for
"United" Kingdom... |
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Agamemnon
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:51 am Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
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|
"Stephen Wilson" <stephen.wilson2004nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:cU_Uk.70952$%D2.32468@newsfe18.ams2...
| Quote: |
"Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:NK2dneal_6566rnUnZ2dnUVZ8rydnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
There is no peace on Cyprus and there will not be until the Turkish
occupation ends and all Turkish soldiers and Turkish colonists return to
Turkey and the Greek Cypriots get their land back.
Idiot. There will be no peace there because idiots like you don't want
peace. Turkish Cypriots versus Greek Cypriots. They're as bad as each
other.
|
GET AN EDUCATION YOU STUPID IGNORANT IMBECILE!
The is no peace because over 40,000 Turkish troops and 160,000 illegal
Turkish mainland colonists are illegally occupied Cyprus territory. This
problem has nothing to do with the Turkish Cyprus. It is a problem of Turkey
verses Cyprus. |
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Agamemnon
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:59 am Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
|
|
"gogu" <RuminiiSugPulaL@Greci.com> wrote in message
news:IcCdneR_YfLq5bnUnZ2dnUVZ8judnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | ? "imipak" <imipak@yahoo.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:2dd5e915-6a3e-4e54->982f-a082c1d6509d@a17g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 19, 6:14 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
I don't deny the fact because in a war both parts are doing wrong things
but
I'd be quite interested in seeing an unbiased source stating that the
number
of the "dead Turks after the division" is comparable to that of the dead
Greeks!
I am also challenging the fact that *these* Turks were killed *after*
the
division of the island!
As I said, during a war time there are killings from both parts but
*after*
the ceasefire??!!! I think not!
I'd like to see an independent and unbiased source please.
BTW, AFAIK it was *only* Turkey condemned for similar things by the UN
and
there is a resolution for that regarding *only* Turkey!
Ok, it's hard to prove it was strictly after the division, but the
accounts given by the BBC do indicate some percentage were.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6166560.stm
According to the article: "Some 1,500 Greek Cypriots and 500 Turkish
Cypriots are officially registered as missing on Cyprus, never seen
since fighting broke out between the two communities in the 1960s."
This is information from the United Nations Committee on Missing
Persons, which I assume all parties will accept is about as
independent and unbiased as sources are likely to get.
First of all, I don't consider a radio/TV station reportage an authority
on such matters and an unbiased source.
As I am sure you know that was proved many times in the past, even with
BBC.
But even so, the numbers are not "comparable" as you may see as the ratio
is 1:3!
Further, these are the "desaparecidos" *during* the invasion, thus the
war!
No "after", no nothing.
|
Not only that but the numbers do not even include the 5000 Greek Cypriots
accounted for who were murdered by the invading Turkish forces. Add them
both together any that is 7000 Greek Cypriots who were slaughtered by the
Turks in 1974 compared to a hand full of less than 100 Turkish Cypriots who
died in justified reprisals. There is no comparison whatsoever, and that is
even before the 1000 women who the Turks raped and thousands more civilians
who were maimed and tortured are added, whereas not one single Turkish
Cypriot civilian was deliberately sought out and harmed by the Greek
Cypriots.
| Quote: |
These make it clear that there are mass graves on both sides and that
there was killing after peace broke out (although it does not show how
much).
I am not sure at all that the above reportages prove the "after" theory...
My point, however, stands and stands unanswered: Is Agamemnon
attempting to use this tragic set of events in order to assert his
(somewhat unique) view of world history?
Pleeeease, I am not Agamemnon:-)
|
You are an imbecile. |
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imipak
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: Re: And the final piece of the puzzle is put in place. Daois |
|
|
On Nov 19, 12:51pm, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
| Quote: | "Stephen Wilson" <stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:cU_Uk.70952$%D2.32468@newsfe18.ams2...
"Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:NK2dneal_6566rnUnZ2dnUVZ8rydnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
There is no peace on Cyprus and there will not be until the Turkish
occupation ends and all Turkish soldiers and Turkish colonists return to
Turkey and the Greek Cypriots get their land back.
Idiot. There will be no peace there because idiots like you don't want
peace. Turkish Cypriots versus Greek Cypriots. They're as bad as each
other.
GET AN EDUCATION YOU STUPID IGNORANT IMBECILE!
The is no peace because over 40,000 Turkish troops and 160,000 illegal
Turkish mainland colonists are illegally occupied Cyprus territory. This
problem has nothing to do with the Turkish Cyprus. It is a problem of Turkey
verses Cyprus.
|
If everyone is descended from the Greeks, as you've claimed, it is
impossible for anyone to illegally occupy territory the Greeks would
claim. The Greeks known as the Turks would be no different and no less
legitimate than the Greeks known as the Greeks. So, which is it? Is
Cyprus illegally occupied OR is your history a work of fiction
intended for propaganda purposes only? |
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