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y_p_w
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 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: Best uses for waterproof-breathable fabrics and DWR? |
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So anticipating a rainstorm this weekend which materialized and
sitting for hours at an outdoor spectator sporting event, I got my
rain gear retreated with DWR (probably not hot enough in the dryer
though).
I probably should have learned when a friend advised me that this
stuff really requires movement and body heat to work properly.
Something like a plastic poncho won't breathe when actively getting
somewhere, which is where these waterproof-breathable membranes work
well. But sitting 3-4 hours in a rainstorm probably wasn't the
greatest idea, as I got a little bit clammy as the fabric wetted
through and the DWR didn't hold for long on my arms, hood, and pants
(I was sitting in a little puddle on my seat). So next time I'm
probably bringing a poncho to wear over the gear. I figure sitting on
my butt for three hours probably isn't going to create the heat to get
the Gore-Tex working properly.
I tried checking out the DWR on the pair of Gore-Tex pants I got cheap
at a sample sale last summer. The DWR seemed to cover the fabric, but
the embroidered parts with the logos seemed to soak through quickly.
It would seem that the DWR treatment was applied to the fabric and not
the pants after they were sewn. |
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ACAR
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Best uses for waterproof-breathable fabrics and DWR? |
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On Nov 3, 12:24 pm, y_p_w <y_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | So anticipating a rainstorm this weekend which materialized and
sitting for hours at an outdoor spectator sporting event, I got my
rain gear retreated with DWR (probably not hot enough in the dryer
though).
I probably should have learned when a friend advised me that this
stuff really requires movement and body heat to work properly.
|
What makes the breathable part work is the partial pressure due to
water vapor. You need to have a higher partial pressure inside the
garment than exists outside in order for the water vapor to move to
the outside. Generally, this means you get the inside of the garment
warm and moist, relative to ambient conditions, before the water vapor
moves. The colder it is outside, the easier it is to create a
substantial gradient of water vapor pressure.
While this mechanism will work, it isn't instantaneous. Note how
Patagonia is now selling wool base layers. Could be a reason, eh?
For sitting still, there's PVC raingear; with wool layers, for warmth,
if needed. |
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y_p_w
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Best uses for waterproof-breathable fabrics and DWR? |
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On Nov 3, 1:46 pm, ACAR <getoutanp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 3, 12:24 pm,y_p_w<y_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
So anticipating a rainstorm this weekend which materialized and
sitting for hours at an outdoor spectator sporting event, I got my
rain gear retreated with DWR (probably not hot enough in the dryer
though).
I probably should have learned when a friend advised me that this
stuff really requires movement and body heat to work properly.
What makes the breathable part work is the partial pressure due to
water vapor. You need to have a higher partial pressure inside the
garment than exists outside in order for the water vapor to move to
the outside. Generally, this means you get the inside of the garment
warm and moist, relative to ambient conditions, before the water vapor
moves. The colder it is outside, the easier it is to create a
substantial gradient of water vapor pressure.
While this mechanism will work, it isn't instantaneous. Note how
Patagonia is now selling wool base layers. Could be a reason, eh?
For sitting still, there's PVC raingear; with wool layers, for warmth,
if needed.
|
I participated in a discussion about that, and one person did mention
that the heat created water vapor pressure that was essentially the
"breathable" part.
There are the varying conditions we're talking about. I had to get
there in the first place, and that PVC is going to get really sweaty
if I need to hike up a hill in it.
I walked out of the stadium and back to public transportation
options. It was maybe a good mile, and during that time I found that
I was feeling a bit more comfortable after moving. I was getting a
bit warmer and any moisture pooling on the inside had a chance to
evaporate.
I don't particularly like wool, but I do have some decent synthetic
layers. |
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Peter Clinch
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Best uses for waterproof-breathable fabrics and DWR? |
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y_p_w wrote:
| Quote: | So next time I'm
probably bringing a poncho to wear over the gear. I figure sitting on
my butt for three hours probably isn't going to create the heat to get
the Gore-Tex working properly.
|
May not be very compatible with stadium seating if there's someone right
behind you, but an umbrella is far and away the best way to deal with
rain if there's room and not too much wind. No Miracle Fabric (TM)
needed as the rain doesn't get to you, and any vapour coming from you
vents straight to the atmosphere.
In a storm with little wind I've been drier under a brolly wearing no
waterproofs than folk in full on head-to-toe Goretex. Vision and
hearing much better too without a hood.
So best use for breathable fabrics is when there's a serious wind and/or
you need your hands for something else, or as a "just in case" that can
live at the bottom of your pack.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
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ACAR
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Best uses for waterproof-breathable fabrics and DWR? |
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On Nov 3, 6:00 pm, y_p_w <y_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 3, 1:46 pm, ACAR <getoutanp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Nov 3, 12:24 pm,y_p_w<y_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
So anticipating a rainstorm this weekend which materialized and
sitting for hours at an outdoor spectator sporting event, I got my
rain gear retreated with DWR (probably not hot enough in the dryer
though).
I probably should have learned when a friend advised me that this
stuff really requires movement and body heat to work properly.
What makes the breathable part work is the partial pressure due to
water vapor. You need to have a higher partial pressure inside the
garment than exists outside in order for the water vapor to move to
the outside. Generally, this means you get the inside of the garment
warm and moist, relative to ambient conditions, before the water vapor
moves. The colder it is outside, the easier it is to create a
substantial gradient of water vapor pressure.
While this mechanism will work, it isn't instantaneous. Note how
Patagonia is now selling wool base layers. Could be a reason, eh?
For sitting still, there's PVC raingear; with wool layers, for warmth,
if needed.
I participated in a discussion about that, and one person did mention
that the heat created water vapor pressure that was essentially the
"breathable" part.
There are the varying conditions we're talking about. I had to get
there in the first place, and that PVC is going to get really sweaty
if I need to hike up a hill in it.
|
Like Pete said, use an umbrella.
| Quote: |
I walked out of the stadium and back to public transportation
options. It was maybe a good mile, and during that time I found that
I was feeling a bit more comfortable after moving. I was getting a
bit warmer and any moisture pooling on the inside had a chance to
evaporate.
I don't particularly like wool, but I do have some decent synthetic
layers.
|
I find a wool layer over a synthetic base layer works great; the base
layer keeps you feeling dry and the wool absorbs some moisture and
more evenly distributes moisture across the garment (decreases wet/
cold spots). The wool acts like a moisture regulator allowing the
breathable waterproof outer layer more time to transfer water vapor
from inside to outside. On the other hand, if you can't wash your
synthetics daily, a wool base layer smells better.
I just got "303 Fabric Protectant" and applied it to a cotton canvas
jacket. A light rain beaded and rolled off. Maybe someone else can
comment on this product's durability and effectiveness in heavier rain
or on other fabrics. |
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y_p_w
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Best uses for waterproof-breathable fabrics and DWR? |
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On Nov 4, 12:36 am, Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | y_p_wwrote:
So next time I'm
probably bringing a poncho to wear over the gear. I figure sitting on
my butt for three hours probably isn't going to create the heat to get
the Gore-Tex working properly.
May not be very compatible with stadium seating if there's someone right
behind you, but an umbrella is far and away the best way to deal with
rain if there's room and not too much wind. No Miracle Fabric (TM)
needed as the rain doesn't get to you, and any vapour coming from you
vents straight to the atmosphere.
|
Unfortunately umbrellas were not allowed because of their ability to
block views. This particular stadium is narrowly spaced bench
seating. I've seen outdoor venues where umbrellas were allowed and
sometimes people get testy with each other; in general many people
leave for protection from the elements. It was also raining almost
sideways at times. |
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y_p_w
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: Best uses for waterproof-breathable fabrics and DWR? |
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Chick Tower wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:24:16 -0800, y_p_w wrote:
So next time I'm probably bringing a poncho to wear over the gear.
What's the point of that? You don't seem to think the Gore-tex will
breathe while you're sitting still, so you'd still be clammy, even with
the outer surface being dry.
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The point was that without substantial movement, the DWR will
eventually wet through and the breathability of the membrane is
completely blocked. Or I suppose I could stash the membrane jacket
until I'm ready to take the walk home.
In general I think sitting wouldn't produce as much perspiration as
maybe hiking 300 vertical feet in 30 minutes. I saw quite a few
people wearing camo hunting ponchos of silicone coated nylon or PVC.
This is obviously not going to comfortable when I'm mobile, but may be
ideal when I'm sitting on my butt. |
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Chick Tower
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: Re: Best uses for waterproof-breathable fabrics and DWR? |
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On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:24:16 -0800, y_p_w wrote:
| Quote: | So next time I'm probably bringing a poncho to wear over the gear.
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What's the point of that? You don't seem to think the Gore-tex will
breathe while you're sitting still, so you'd still be clammy, even with
the outer surface being dry.
--
Chick Tower
For e-mail: rbc DOT sent DOT towerboy AT xoxy DOT net |
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Peter Clinch
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Best uses for waterproof-breathable fabrics and DWR? |
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y_p_w wrote:
| Quote: | In general I think sitting wouldn't produce as much perspiration as
maybe hiking 300 vertical feet in 30 minutes. I saw quite a few
people wearing camo hunting ponchos of silicone coated nylon or PVC.
This is obviously not going to comfortable when I'm mobile, but may be
ideal when I'm sitting on my butt.
|
For some values of "comfortable", of course. A good wide-brimmed hat
like a Tilley will keep a lot of rain off and not get clammy. Beyond
that I'd say your under-layers are the real key to comfort. Put a
non-breathable barrier over the Goretex and I don't think you'll have a
great system.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
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y_p_w
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: Best uses for waterproof-breathable fabrics and DWR? |
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On Nov 5, 12:31 am, Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | y_p_w wrote:
In general I think sitting wouldn't produce as much perspiration as
maybe hiking 300 vertical feet in 30 minutes. I saw quite a few
people wearing camo hunting ponchos of silicone coated nylon or PVC.
This is obviously not going to comfortable when I'm mobile, but may be
ideal when I'm sitting on my butt.
For some values of "comfortable", of course. A good wide-brimmed hat
like a Tilley will keep a lot of rain off and not get clammy. Beyond
that I'd say your under-layers are the real key to comfort. Put a
non-breathable barrier over the Goretex and I don't think you'll have a
great system.
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I was thinking maybe one option was taking off the Gore-Tex jacket and
putting on the non-breathable poncho before heading to my seat. The
rain pants would have stayed on though.
I wore a poly tee and a poly-fleece zip up shirt underneath. The
jeans were a problem though. They soaked up a lot through the
openings (would gaiters be overkill?) . It also got wet through the
front pocket zippers. Other than that, my pants were seam taped.
Next time it rains that badly I'm thinking of maybe wearing my Gore-
Tex pants (got 'em cheap at TNF's sample sale) with integrated
gaiters.
Overall it was a fun afternoon in Berkeley, California. Here are some
pictuires
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2008/11/02/SPFQ13SKEI..DTL&o=1
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2008/11/02/SPFQ13SKEI..DTL&o=10 |
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