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John Mayson
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 Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:47 am Post subject: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/11/the-boy-who-cri.html
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John Mayson <john@mayson.us>
Austin, Texas, USA |
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Revive755
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:24 am Post subject: Re: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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On Nov 14, 3:47 pm, John Mayson <j...@mayson.us> wrote:
| Quote: | http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/11/the-boy-who-cri.html
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John Mayson <j...@mayson.us
Austin, Texas, USA
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I see they picked a good state to test that in. Haven't seen how
things are around Lafayette, but Indiana posts way too many sections
of interstate at 55 that could handle 65 in the off peak period, such
as the northern half of I-465, I-70 around the Indianapolis airport,
and a large part of I-94. Then considering that they won't post four
lane expressways higher than 60. |
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Rick
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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On Nov 14, 1:47 pm, John Mayson <j...@mayson.us> wrote:
| Quote: | http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/11/the-boy-who-cri.html
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John Mayson <j...@mayson.us
Austin, Texas, USA
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Tell me something I and every other municipal traffic engineer didn't
know...
If only the public would abandon their wishful thinking ("faith-based
traffic engineering" as one colleague coined), then maybe we'd see
real reform in setting speed limits. But I'm not holding my breath.
Rick Perez, P.E. |
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tin cup
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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John Mayson wrote:
| Quote: | http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/11/the-boy-who-cri.html
There ar, like the article suggest unrealistic reasons for arbitrary |
speed limits.
Even the 85% rule was designed by meddlers. The limit should have been
set for what is safe for the roadway and conditions such as rain. The
Interstate System was originally designed to be safely navigated at
100mph. I remember a discussion among Eisenhower and someone when I was
too small to comprehend what they ere talking about but the reference stuck.
We have over the last several years had four and five lane divided
highways constructed, similar to Interstates to provide efficient
transport across the State. Several years ago The county Services
Associations and Chambers of Commerce got Legislators to turn over
control of the State Roads passing through their bergs. Then the flea
market and 7/11 types started having interchanges built and establishing
their business on the corners. They demanded stop lights to induce
traffic patters conducive to Motorists turning into their businesses.
Then they sate crying the speed limits are too high because of the
intersections and to further congestion and induce traffic into their
business. This is in the proverbial middle of nowhere.
It is not possible to traverse the State on these roadways in anything
like a convenient or efficient speed or time. Lower limits are used for
revenue generation also. Everyone that lives or drives thought the areas
know it. The Business Men that run the bergs run the State roads for
their profit and to generate revenues to pad their buddies pockets. The
counties Services Associations got the State to let them tack on huge
Court Charges to any tickets to pay for magnificent offices,
extravagances and huge salaries unrelated to the character of their
jobs. They then argue to some of the gullible hat it keeps taxes down.
Millions of gallons of fuel and brake pads are wasted and Travelers'
patience and peace are aggravated by spending fours or a day on a trip
that should take only an half an hour or two hours at most. A forty five
mph on a divided five lane with virtually no traffic is insane and is
going to be violated. If you have to get somewhere you don't have all
day to do it. Because some berg has expanded it's city limits, to the
road, to capture revenue and some rat hole or business owned by a
politician on a corner is not a reason to cripple the efficient flow of
traffic on the roadways. Put the Businesses in the Business district.
Get Bureaucratic oorganizations and meddling nannies to of establishing
speed limits. I remember when, outside corporate limits etc the only
speed limit sign was resume safe speed. Until recently there was still a
couple, of these antiques on one roadway. |
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gpsman
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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On Nov 15, 4:28 pm, Arif Khokar <akhokar1...@wvu.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | Revive755 wrote:
Indiana posts way too many sections
of interstate at 55 that could handle 65 in the off peak period,
Given the terrain, there's probably no reason why they couldn't be
posted at 80 mph.
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Unless you consider the average idiot who comprises the average driver
a reason.
Approximately 50% of driver never execute a turn signal. Of the
remaining 50%, 49% use them improperly.
It's not so much velocity as it is the manner in which driving is
executed.
About half of drivers exceeding the speed limit are following too
closely, or will be as soon as they can manage it.
About half of drivers never adjust their velocity for conditions.
About half of drivers will come down a freeway ramp maintaining less
than 2 vehicle lengths from the vehicle to their front, in clusters of
many multiples of vehicles.
Many if not most drivers often overdrive their headlights.
Many, many drivers approach a stop sign (or to make a ROR) with no
intention of stopping, unless a crash appears inevitable. Then, a lot
of them don't stop anyway.
The average driver considered, speed limits are *way* "overposted".
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- gpsman |
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Arif Khokar
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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Revive755 wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 14, 3:47 pm, John Mayson <j...@mayson.us> wrote:
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/11/the-boy-who-cri.html
I see they picked a good state to test that in. Haven't seen how
things are around Lafayette, but Indiana posts way too many sections
of interstate at 55 that could handle 65 in the off peak period,
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Given the terrain, there's probably no reason why they couldn't be
posted at 80 mph. |
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necromancer
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:28:58 -0500, Arif Khokar <akhokar1234@wvu.edu>
wrote:
| Quote: |
Given the terrain, there's probably no reason why they couldn't be
posted at 80 mph.
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Revenue, Arif. Revenue....
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"This item demonstrates how stupid the average American is. Every
ninety minutes someone in this country is hit by a train. A train,
okay? Trains are on tracks; they can't come and get you. They
can't surprise you when you step off a curb. You have to go to them.
Got that?"
--George Carlin |
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XOZ
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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On Nov 15, 10:40 am, Rick <rickpere...@msn.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 14, 1:47 pm, John Mayson <j...@mayson.us> wrote:
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/11/the-boy-who-cri.html
--
John Mayson <j...@mayson.us
Austin, Texas, USA
Tell me something I and every other municipal traffic engineer didn't
know...
If only the public would abandon their wishful thinking ("faith-based
traffic engineering" as one colleague coined), then maybe we'd see
real reform in setting speed limits. But I'm not holding my breath.
Rick Perez, P.E.
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Or what about this? How about using more advisory speeds set based on
a ball bank meter and actual studied conditions in lieu of arbitrarily
posted advisory speeds? This way, you could have roads with NO speed
limit signs, but would be able to react to conditions where speed
reduction was essential. IOW, if you go around a curve and it's
perfectly safe to drive at 45-50 MPH in normal conditions, do not set
the advisory speed to 25 (I often wonder if they just stocked a bunch
of 25 MPH advisories). Speed limit signs should be set on sections of
roads where it is actually DANGEROUS to drive faster than that. A
serpentine stretch of road with tricky curves or a stretch of road
with lots of thrill hills with a side road hidden on the other side
suggest mayhem with anything goes speeds, but a straight, flat open
road with minimal traffic congestion should not have any speed posted,
and especially not those stupid 45 MPH speed limits that counties and
cities worship.
Just the other day I was driving in NC where local control is far less
than my state. I was on an extremely winding, narrow dangerous road
with drop-offs off the shoulder and many sharp curves with posted
advisories (something a lot more rare where I live, and I don't mean
the curves). What was the speed limit? 45, and I did well to drive
40 on most of it, but on the straight stretches I indeed got to that.
With that reasoning, why are we wasting tons of tax dollars on those
damn rectangles when obviously speed has to be adjusted for
conditions? It might be safe to drive 65 MPH for 3/4 mile then slow
down to 30 on the turn at the end of that 3/4 mile. If no warning
sign is posted, is it the fault of the driver or the jurisdiction who
posted the arbitrary 30 MPH for the ENTIRE ROAD, but failed to mark
the dangerous turn ahead? |
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elaich
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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tin cup <tinny@outdoor.not> wrote in news:UpCTk.286$Vr1.98@newsfe05.iad:
| Quote: | The Business Men that run the bergs run the State roads for
their profit and to generate revenues to pad their buddies pockets.
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Indeed the vision has been clouded. I think the perfect example of this
exists right here in my county.
In 2 instances (US 99, I-5) the first choice was to route the main
highway over the best possible route. In both cases, the route chosen
bypassed the county seat by 5 miles. In both cases, the lobbying won out,
and both roads were constructed over far more tortuous routes, both
costing far more than they should have, just so they could pass through a
county seat.
Maybe somewhere along the way, somebody should have said "you put your
county seat in the wrong place."
But when the county seat was built, it was in the right place. Who could
envision modern roads that didn't necessarily run right next to the
river?
The point is, people caved to local pressure. People who should have been
above that. That was an instance of people resisting change, rather than
adapting to it.
Even when they did build the Interstate out in the flats, the Mom & Pops
simply moved out to it. Congestion grew, suburbs built up that became
towns, and the whole cycle repeats once more.
The whole concept is dated, but we are locked into it, and it just
continues to proliferate. All technological advances are geared into
keeping it and playing along with it. Even Virginia Tech's "Smart Road"
is dedicated to maintaining the status quo. One person in one car driving
down the highway. |
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Arif Khokar
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: Re: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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tin cup wrote:
| Quote: | John Mayson wrote:
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/11/the-boy-who-cri.html
There ar, like the article suggest unrealistic reasons for arbitrary
speed limits.
Even the 85% rule was designed by meddlers.
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Actually it was developed after a lot of study. Many people are under
the mistaken assumption that speed distribution is uniform rather than
normal (or close to normal). Most drivers drive within 10 mph of each
others speeds. So, given the 85th percentile speed, there really aren't
many drivers exceeding that speed by more than 5 mph (less than 5%
typically). Less than 1% exceed that speed by more than 7 mph.
| Quote: | The limit should have been set for what is safe for the roadway and
conditions such as rain.
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No, the speed limit should be set to the maximum safe speed under good
conditions (which doesn't include rain). |
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Arif Khokar
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: Re: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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Rick wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 14, 1:47 pm, John Mayson <j...@mayson.us> wrote:
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/11/the-boy-who-cri.html
If only the public would abandon their wishful thinking ("faith-based
traffic engineering" as one colleague coined), then maybe we'd see
real reform in setting speed limits.
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Could you elaborate on what you mean by wishful thinking? Is it that
certain segments of the public clamor for lower speed limits? IME, most
people don't really care about the speed limit. |
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gpsman
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:54 am Post subject: Re: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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On Nov 16, 1:45 pm, Arif Khokar <akhokar1...@wvu.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | tin cup wrote:
The limit should have been set for what is safe for the roadway and
conditions such as rain.
No, the speed limit should be set to the maximum safe speed under good
conditions (which doesn't include rain).
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"Maximum safe speed" describes essentially nothing.
A safe velocity for one driver in one vehicle is most assuredly unsafe
for another... if you'll excuse me for considering someone other than
yourself.
Most people can't drive for shit. They often operate as if the laws
of physics do not apply to them. People who want to operate among
them at a "maximum safe speed" seem to me to not be thinking for shit.
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- gpsman |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:45 am Post subject: Re: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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On Nov 16, 1:20 am, elaich <x...@y.z> wrote:
| Quote: | The point is, people caved to local pressure. People who should have been
above that. That was an instance of people resisting change, rather than
adapting to it.
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Well, aren't "locals" allowed to benefit from a highway? Perhaps the
locals are being selfish, but then those who want to screw the locals
could be just as selfish.
| Quote: | Even when they did build the Interstate out in the flats, the Mom & Pops
simply moved out to it. Congestion grew, suburbs built up that became
towns, and the whole cycle repeats once more.
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Sounds like you want the road to be used by only a select few people,
and no one else.
Sounds like you want everyone else to use the bus while you get to
drive on an open road.
What you forget is that roads are PUBLIC and open to all. As PUBLIC,
the entire public gets a say in how and where they're built and
operated.
Certainly the business community could raise funds and build its own
highway, designed and operated for its own interests, charging tolls
to pay its way. Oh but wait, they tried that and it didn't work. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:55 am Post subject: Re: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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On Nov 16, 10:32 pm, Arif Khokar <akhokar1...@wvu.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | The "85th percentile" was -one- factor
You mean the *primary* factor.
of many used by engineers in speed studies,
The rest of which are secondary and should only be applicable in unusual
situations.
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No. Scott's post was 100% correct in its entirety.
The 85th percentile is only one of several factors . Obvious is road
design.
But no so obvious are things like traffic volume and side traffic.
Roads with high volume of traffic need to be a lower speed than a wide
open road. Roads with cross traffic, side streets, pedestrian
crossings have to be slower than roads in the forest. Drivers zooming
along, indeed especially drivers zooming along at high speeds, won't
even be aware of the difficulties they place on vehicles trying to get
onto the street or pedestrians crossing it.
Also, drivers are not capable of assessing safety risks; if they were;
we wouldn't have crashes. But some roads are dangerous and until road
funding gets trillions of dollars to fix up every old or congested
arterial in the country, we're stuck with it. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: Re: Study Shows Drivers Feel Free to Ignore Speed Limits |
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On Nov 16, 10:55�pm, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 16, 10:32�pm, Arif Khokar <akhokar1...@wvu.edu> wrote:
The "85th percentile" was -one- factor
You mean the *primary* factor.
of many used by engineers in speed studies,
The rest of which are secondary and should only be applicable in unusual
situations. �
No. � Scott's post was 100% correct in its entirety.
The 85th percentile is only one of several factors . �Obvious is road
design.
But no so obvious are things like traffic volume and side traffic.
Roads with high volume of traffic need to be a lower speed than a wide
open road. �Roads with cross traffic, side streets, pedestrian
crossings have to be slower than roads in the forest. �Drivers zooming
along, indeed especially drivers zooming along at high speeds, won't
even be aware of the difficulties they place on vehicles trying to get
onto the street or pedestrians crossing it.
Also, drivers are not capable of assessing safety risks; if they were;
we wouldn't have crashes. �But some roads are dangerous and until road
funding gets trillions of dollars to fix up every old or congested
arterial in the country, we're stuck with it.
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Actually, drivers must be capable of assessing safety risk or they
would all be crashing all the time. The only way there would be *no*
crashes, would be if every driver was *perfect* in assessing safety
risks. However, like just about everything else -- including chosen
and desired driving speeds -- that ability is on a spectrum.
The 85th percentile represents an acknowledgement of the spectra
involved and, attempts to strike a reasonable balance between mobility
and safety. To arguethat those who favor its use as the primary
determinant of speed limits are ignoring safety, suggests confusion
between the concepts of 85th and 99th percentiles.
Guy Olsen, PE(NJ), PTOE |
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