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 Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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Ken Roberts wrote:
| Quote: | Then there is the great San Giacomo, from Crevola d'Ossola in the
Simplon to the Val Bedretto on the Nufenen pass.
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http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/i54.html
http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/i53.html
| Quote: | Thanks, I saw that in one of your detailed helpful trip reports, so
I've been thinking about it. And I looked for the north-side trails
while riding across Nufenen - (that reconnoiter did not inspire my
confidence). Trying San Giacomo would give me an excuse to try
Simplon. Looking at the second photo makes it clear to me why you
have a different feel for some of the passes than I do: You rode
them in early July in a year with seasonal snow nearby, and I rode
them in September.
For sheer adventure and remoteness, Col de la Seigne and Col
Ferret on the south side of Mont Blanc are memorably great
passes.
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http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/i59.html
| Quote: | That photo helps explain to me why Jobst thinks Col de la Seigne
doesn't have many rocks -- because it didn't the last time he rode
it. But paths and roads keep changing... from my crossing in 2006
see the bottom photo on this page:
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http://www.roberts-1.com/t/b06/mb
| Quote: | Maybe the next time someone rides it and reports, it will have
changed back to like Jobst's photo.
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It will never do that in our life times. The first picture on that
page is a sad reminder of that because I have a photo of that glacier
when it filled that basin at the bottom of the scene with a bursting
upwelling berm of ice. In the days of yore, the trail was a bit
tougher because it clung to the wall above ice that is no longer.
I love your excellent photos that bring out the beauty of that place.
Jobst Brandt |
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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Sergio Servadio wrote:
| Quote: | Then there is the great San Giacomo, from Crevola d'Ossola in the
Simplon to the Val Bedretto on the Nufenen pass.
Thanks, I saw that in one of your detailed helpful trip reports, so
I've been thinking about it. And I looked for the north-side
trails while riding across Nufenen - (that reconnoiter did not
inspire my confidence). Trying San Giacomo would give me an excuse
to try Simplon.
Last year, while riding up from Airolo to the Nufenen, when I was at
L'Acqua, I stopped and inquired about the trail coming down from
Passo San Giacomo. I was told that it is strictly for mountain
bikes, absolutely not possible to do it on a regular road bike.
Jobst, do you agree with that?
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I've done it many times but you don't ride it, you either ski down
with bicycle saddle under armpit steering with the left hand and using
the the feet as gliders or brakes in the snow. When there isn't any
snow you walk. Neither method requires a knobby tired bicycle.
Besides, that reminds me of the European tourists I meet riding HWY1
of the California coast on fat knobby tires... because some camp
grounds are soft. This is a bicycle tour on roads, not a cyclocross
event with baggage.
| Quote: | The Simplon?
Ken, spare yourself such a disillusion. Nowadays it's a true
Autostrada (except the stretch of the old road up from Brig, if you
take it) and not even rewarding for the overall landscape, in my
opinion.
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I think you must look farther than the pavement. You can see the
Aletsch Glacier from the Simplon and the gorge of the Saltina. The
landscape has not changed in all those years since it was a dirt road.
The last few years I rode over the uphill direction over the stupid
concrete suspension bridge that it perpetually under construction and
closed in that direction.
Jobst Brandt |
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sergio
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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On 22 Ott, 21:27, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
| Quote: | Sergio Servadio wrote:
There is major
reconstruction under way on the last 10 kms of Gran San Bernardo.
Beware if you plan to be there in the spring: it won't be over yet.
I smell ski!
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I doubt it.
There is no ski facility up there.
Sergio
Pisa |
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:27 am Post subject: Re: Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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Sergio Servadio wrote:
| Quote: | have you ridden your bike also along Val Giralba up to Misurina?
If you mean the S48 west from Auronzo di Cadore...
Yes, indeed. I had mentioned because it is a 'different' approach
to the Misurina area, with a lot less traffic. Of the three roads
taking up there the one I like the least, for some reason, is the
one from Cortina to Passo Tre Croci. Further on is like riding on
the Moon.
PS. I forgot to mention somewhere else. There is major
recontrucion under way on the last 10 kms of Gran San Bernardo.
Beware if you plan to be there in the spring: it won't be over yet.
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I smell ski!
Jobst Brandt |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:40 am Post subject: Re: Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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Sergio Servadio wrote:
| Quote: | Â There is major reconstruction under way on the last 10 kms of Gran
San Bernardo. Beware if you plan to be there in the spring: it
won't be over yet.
I smell ski!
I doubt it. There is no ski facility up there.
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Yet.
Meanwhile, there is a good place to stay in Ãœbersee, Tirol:
http://nozomi.homelinux.org/pictures/20081018-Nackter-Hund/20081018-093311.jpg
Jobst Brandt |
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Ken Roberts
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: Re: Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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sergio wrote
| Quote: | . . . a 'different' approach to the Misurina area,
with a lot less traffic. Of the three roads taking
up there the one I like the least, for some reason,
is the one from Cortina to Passo Tre Croci.
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I've never climbed up that, but someday I probably will. Tony and I rode
over Tre Croci west-bound over the summer, I thought it had some nice views
of the mountains and valley, but perhaps the views don't appear as well
riding it east-bound. As a descent some parts were a straighter and steeper
than I prefer, but Tony said he liked it.
Ken |
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Tom Sherman
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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Sergio Servadio wrote:
| Quote: | Ken,
you know the area around Carbonin at least as well as I.
That trail up from Carbonin was where I ventured, some thirty years
ago, with my wooden cross country skis (as if to mimick mountain
skiing ... ).
That whole area between Auronzo, Cortina and DObbiaco is the most
stunning ever.[...]
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Poor Sergio has obviously never been to south/central Iowa!
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the precipitate. |
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sergio
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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On 23 Ott, 01:34, "Ken Roberts" <iKen7Roberts7-nn7_n...@yahoo7.com>
wrote:
As a descent some parts were a straighter and steeper
| Quote: | than I prefer, but Tony said he liked it.
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You know what?
That's exactly what I had written as a possible reason for my dislike;
later I did erase it.
I don't mind its steepness provided the road is not 'dull'. I have
always thought so when climbing over from Cortina through Alvera',
despite the great views of Tofane on the other side of the valley and
of Cristallo and Faloria above my head.
It probably has to do also with so much traffic that one always has to
cope with along that route.
Talking about steep and straight slopes the one I resent the least is
that one between Serai di Sottoguda and Capanna Bill.
A bet more than a dime that Jobst won't disagree on that. With reason.
Sergio
Pisa |
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sergio
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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On 23 Ott, 04:04, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Poor Sergio has obviously never been to south/central Iowa!
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But I spent a few months in Fort Worth, Tx.
Sergio
Pisa |
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Tom Sherman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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Sergio Servadio wrote:
| Quote: | On 23 Ott, 04:04, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com
wrote:
Poor Sergio has obviously never been to south/central Iowa!
But I spent a few months in Fort Worth, Tx.
Well, at least the Iowa drivers are more cyclist friendly than the Texas |
drivers.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the precipitate. |
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Martin Borsje
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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Ken Roberts has brought this to us :
| Quote: | Martin Borsje wrote
This road [over Grosse Scheidegg] is paved - actually the climb from the
other side (Meiringen) is far more beautiful
I do not agree. Wait till you see my photographs. My opinion is that the east
side up from Meiringen is a worthwhile climb, indeed with spectacular views
higher up. But the climb up the west side on bike route 61 (not the main
road) from Interlaken to Grindelwald is overwhelmingly great - (some on dirt,
but the majority paved) - at least the day I did it.
. . (Funny when I reached Grosse Scheidegg just a few weeks ago, I met four
riders from the Netherlands who had ridden up the east side from Meiringen. I
told them right there at the pass that it was too bad they missed riding up
the west side thru Grindelwald. Then I rode down the east side toward
Meiringen, and I was even more convinced that the west side was better --
and then I met them again at a restaurant, since they descended the same way
they came up.)
North part of Sanetsch is heavily unpaved, you have to carry your bike or
take the cable car.
Thanks for the warning. So did you descend the south side back down the same
way? or cross over north?
Ken
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/ and \ south |
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Mike Jacoubowsky
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:48f8d34e$0$33513$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
| Quote: | Ken Roberts wrote:
I've gotten to sample riding some of the high passes and mountain
roads of Switzerland, and now I've got some questions about it.
(a) What is your favorite high road or pass to ride? What is it that
you like so much about that one?
There is only one worth repeating over and over again... and then thee
is the second.
Stelvio and Gavia!!! Don't miss them if you ever ride the Alps.
For sheer adventure and remoteness, Col de la Seigne and Col Ferret on
the south side of Mont Blanc are memorably great passes.
http://tinyurl.com/dr4ot
Jobst Brandt
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Coming in to this thread a bit late, but got a question. I'll be
bringing my son with me to the Alps during the '09 TdF, staying in
either Chambery or Albertville. We'll have a rental car, plus the train
is an option for getting around as well. Any recommendations for
something truly memorable and a bit unexpected? Sure, he wants to ride
Alpe d'Huez, but it would be fun to get him out on a true paved goat
path.
He climbs well, but not really fast (he's still built more like a
linebacker than a cyclist).
Thanks-
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA |
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
| Quote: | I've gotten to sample riding some of the high passes and mountain
roads of Switzerland, and now I've got some questions about it.
(a) What is your favorite high road or pass to ride? What is it
that you like so much about that one?
There is only one worth repeating over and over again... and then
thee is the second.
Stelvio and Gavia!!! Don't miss them if you ever ride the Alps.
For sheer adventure and remoteness, Col de la Seigne and Col Ferret
on the south side of Mont Blanc are memorably great passes.
|
http://tinyurl.com/dr4ot
| Quote: | Coming in to this thread a bit late, but got a question. I'll be
bringing my son with me to the Alps during the '09 TdF, staying in
either Chambery or Albertville. We'll have a rental car, plus the
train is an option for getting around as well. Any recommendations
for something truly memorable and a bit unexpected? Sure, he wants
to ride Alpe d'Huez, but it would be fun to get him out on a true
paved goat path.
He climbs well, but not really fast (he's still built more like a
linebacker than a cyclist).
|
As I recall, he needs a bit of dietary guidance and more miles to get
back into his youthful athletic form. Forget about the TdF, it's a
bore and better seen on TV if you really have to watch this excess of
hype. Stay as far from the route as you can to avoid full hotels and
odious crowds.
Most of the famous climbs are famous for their continuous exposed
grade and ugly landscape. For sheer beauty think Gavia, Stelvio, the
Dolomites, Slovenia, Gross Glockner, and of course via Mala between
Splügen and Thusis, Susten, Rosenlaui-Grosse Scheidegg, and many more
that you never hear of in the press.
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/
Pick your favorite route and don't worry about the Tour de Suisse, it
will go by without road closures and all the hype.
Jobst Brandt |
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Ken Roberts
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: Re: France + Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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| Quote: | Any recommendations for something truly memorable and a bit unexpected?
Sure, he wants to ride Alpe d'Huez, but it would be fun to get him out on
a true paved goat path.
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around Chambery and Albertville, in daytrip range with rental car:
closest thing I know around there to a high "paved goat path" (but only
partly paved):
* drive from Chambery / Albertville to Bourg St Maurice, then partway up the
Cormet de Roseland road, park near the junction for Val des Glaciers. Ride
the single-lane road up the Val des Glaciers as far as you want to ride
(starts paved, then turns to dirt, eventually single-track) - (I rode on my
road bike at least as far as the Refuge des Mottets hut) -- and then hike as
far up to Col de la Seigne (mentioned by Jobst) as you want to hike. Great
views of the snowy Aiguille des Glaciers peak, cows, sheep, etc., views of
Mont Blanc as get higher toward the col. Optionally go partway down
northeast side into Italy to another hut.
photos lower half of this page: http://roberts-1.com/t/b06/mb
photos of some other riding below: http://roberts-1.com/t/b07/f/k
* just ride around thru the farms and vineyards and villages south of
Chambery. For finding the paved single-lane roads (? goat paths, or more
likely former cow paths ?), best to have a 1:25000 maps. I've got some
favorite short routes I could point you to. But perhaps it would be more fun
to get lost on your own, and I could just suggest which maps to buy at one
of the local shops.
* Cormet de Roselend with side trips to Col du Pre and Val des Glaciers is
one of the prettier road passes in France. Since you have a rental car, you
could skip the boring sections lower down -- park as mentioned previously
for Val des Glaciers + Col de la Seigne.
* the Versant du Soleil "balcon" route between Aime and Bourg St Maurice.
Perhaps once a "goat path" across the hillsides, but now on well-paved roads
thru quiet villages with views across the valley to the north slopes
(hopefully still with some snow) + some fun descents on the way to Bourg St
Maurice. Then Sharon and I finished our loop on a fun single-lane paved path
along the whitewater Isere river.
* drive your son partway up the north side of Col de Galibier (at least as
far as Valloire -- skip the Col de Telegraphe climb -- possibly ? Plan
Lachat at the bottom of the main steep section -- or higher up depending on
how sore his legs are from the day before). Then you drive over Galibier and
Lauteret and down to La Grave and you climb the south side of Galibier and
descend the same way. While he climbs over and descends to Lauteret, then
thru La Grave to Bourg d'Oisans. You join him for part of the descent to
Bourg d'Oisans, then climb back up to La Grave to get the car. While he
(optionally) starts climbing up l'Alpe d'Huez.
So the idea is that he's doing the finish of the famous "la Marmotte" event,
without riding the whole course. I think the descent from Lauteret to Bourg
d'Oisans is very exciting and fun.
(another option could be the east side of Col de la Croix de Fer, perhaps
you could drive your son up to start just above the village of St Sorlin
d'Arves (because the steepest section is climbing through the village). Or
could start lower around the junction for Col Mollard.)
* drive the autoroute southeast from Albertville toward Modane, but instead
of going to Italy, continue east up the Haute Maurienne valley to around
Bessans, then ride to Bonneval sur Arc (oldest village in the French Alps?)
as a warmup, and continue up the south side of Col de l'Iseran (highest
paved true col in Europe). Optionally ride partway down the north side
(depends on your aversion to ski lifts). Hopefully lots of snow still close
by (or at least visible) in July.
While you're in the Haute Maurienne area, could ride or drive up from
Lanslebourg to Col du Mont Cenis, then ride back and forth above the lake
(American riders seem to either love or hate that lake), optionally partway
down the south side toward Susa, Italy.
way further south in France, not in daytrip range from Chambery:
outside of France . . .
base around Interlaken - Meiringen - Innertkirchen, Switzerland:
* bike route 61 between Interlaken and Grindelwald and Grosse Scheidegg --
majority is single-lane paved, some single-lane dirt/gravel road, some short
sections of single-track trail alongside a roaring river. (actually I
climbed it all on my road bike no problem). Quiet mountain villages, cows,
goats, amazing views of the Eiger and Wetterhorn mountains. Gets sustained
steep near the top. So there's the alternative . . .
Take the post-bus as high as a you need to based on leg soreness (bike racks
on the back of the bus). You can't drive your son to the top because normal
vehicle traffic is not permitted on the top section.
optionally ride down the east side as far as you want, then climb back up
and do the descent.
(Jobst mentioned the very spectacular Grosse Scheidegg, but not the
interesting and varied bike rt 61.)
Nearby also is the climb on the west side of Sustenpass (mentioned by
Jobst) -- spectacular snowy mountains, several short tunnels, interesting
varied curves -- way prettier and more interesting than Alpe d'Huez. (does
your son really "need" to do l'Alpe d'Huez?) With rental car your son could
start higher say around Gadmen. (I'd say the lakes on north side of Grimsel
pass are also memorable on a blue-sky day, again could start climbing
higher, and it might not be harmful to go further and descend south to
Gletsch and even partway up the west side of Furka pass.
Also cable railway high up to the snowy Jungfraujoch (not for bikes),
possible famous mountain climb(s) with professional guide (very memorable
but rather expensive), various non-guided hikes around the mountains, often
using aid of ski lifts and/or post-bus. Likely some other exciting +
spectacular mountain bike trails.
Dolomites and/or Stelvio in Italy:
* lots of truly memorable spectacular riding. Not many "paved goat paths"
(except what Sergio mentioned earlier?) -- the former goat paths have now
been turned into nicely-paved roads.
I haven't done it, but the Sottoguda gorge near Passo Fedaia is supposed to
be an interesting narrow road (but short?), and I've heard it's now closed
to cars.
* while you're there, do some of the great hikes in the Dolomites. (?
unpaved goat paths ?)
* hire a guide if necessary and rent equipment and purchase guidebooks to do
some of the amazingly great "via ferrata" rock climbs in the Dolomites.
Exciting paths in spectacular very steep places way beyond what a goat could
handle.
(There's also some via ferrata climbing routes in France (and Switzerland),
but I haven't done any yet. But most people think northeast Italy has the
best collection).
Ken |
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Mike Jacoubowsky
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Switzerland mountain roads questions |
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==========
As I recall, he needs a bit of dietary guidance and more miles to get
back into his youthful athletic form. Forget about the TdF, it's a
bore and better seen on TV if you really have to watch this excess of
hype. Stay as far from the route as you can to avoid full hotels and
odious crowds.
==========
Jobst: Perhaps you have forgotten what it was like to be a teenager? For
my son, the 'Tour is non-stop fun. He enjoys being able to ride past
cars creeping along en route to the race, he loves being amongst
thousands of cyclists who basically own the roads, and is greatly
motivated by the crowds cheering him on as he rides up the Aubisque or
Port du Bales. He even gets a kick out of the caravan, and in just one
session managed to master the art of snagging bottles from the Aquarel
car (which took me several times to figure out that you really had to be
aggressive).
This isn't a tour like you would do; you'd certainly be staying in
places that have more character, while I do France on the cheap and stay
at Etaps and look for the closest Monoprix to buy supplies. We'll be
renting a car (which we'll try to use as little as possible, favoring
riding & trains to get to our destinations & back).
More miles would definitely be a good thing for him, but that's tough to
do after LaCross season begins (practice every weekday from 5pm-7:30pm
with studying between school and practice).
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:49067714$0$33524$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
| Quote: | I've gotten to sample riding some of the high passes and mountain
roads of Switzerland, and now I've got some questions about it.
(a) What is your favorite high road or pass to ride? What is it
that you like so much about that one?
There is only one worth repeating over and over again... and then
thee is the second.
Stelvio and Gavia!!! Don't miss them if you ever ride the Alps.
For sheer adventure and remoteness, Col de la Seigne and Col Ferret
on the south side of Mont Blanc are memorably great passes.
|
http://tinyurl.com/dr4ot
| Quote: | Coming in to this thread a bit late, but got a question. I'll be
bringing my son with me to the Alps during the '09 TdF, staying in
either Chambery or Albertville. We'll have a rental car, plus the
train is an option for getting around as well. Any recommendations
for something truly memorable and a bit unexpected? Sure, he wants
to ride Alpe d'Huez, but it would be fun to get him out on a true
paved goat path.
He climbs well, but not really fast (he's still built more like a
linebacker than a cyclist).
|
As I recall, he needs a bit of dietary guidance and more miles to get
back into his youthful athletic form. Forget about the TdF, it's a
bore and better seen on TV if you really have to watch this excess of
hype. Stay as far from the route as you can to avoid full hotels and
odious crowds.
Most of the famous climbs are famous for their continuous exposed
grade and ugly landscape. For sheer beauty think Gavia, Stelvio, the
Dolomites, Slovenia, Gross Glockner, and of course via Mala between
Splügen and Thusis, Susten, Rosenlaui-Grosse Scheidegg, and many more
that you never hear of in the press.
http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/Pick your favorite route and don't worry about the Tour de Suisse, itwill go by without road closures and all the hype.Jobst Brandt |
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