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 Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: What Is History? |
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Based upon my observations of what is discussed on various blogs,
newsgroups and newsagency message boards, I have come to several
(perhaps erroneous) conclusions about the Greece-Republic of Macedonia
"issue":
1) This problem is not about irredentism on either side, nor is it
likely to result in any overt conflict between the two states
involved. The reason I say this is the fact that the balance of power
is so overwhelmingly lopsided in Greece's favour as to ensure that any
real or potential hostilities will immediately be decided in the
latter's favour. Thus, any irredentism and/or tub-thumping (from
either source) cannot really be taken seriously. This is not to say
that conflict is impossible; quite the opposite. Rather, it is a more-
or-less foregone conclusion that the R of M will never be able to
defeat Greece militarily, nor will its real or potential irredentist
ideas ever have the slightest chance of succeeding.
2) The whole "irredentism" thing is IMHO a red herring aimed at
obscuring from the outside world certain ugly facts about the
conflict. The first of these is that there is a very strong element of
race-hatred involved here. "Memories" of past conflicts between the
two groups are still painfully fresh (even in people with no personal
experience of them - i.e., most people alive today), and the net
collective result of this is a latent conviction that it could all
happen again. Hate is the child of fear, and each side believes it has
ample reason to fear the other. I know that plenty of people will
vehemently dispute this point of view (and I freely admit that that's
all it is), but I remain unconvinced. One need only read what each
side says (and apparently believes) about the other to see where I am
coming from.
3) The "name issue" is at the very heart of the entire thing, and for
reasons that ought to make both sides ashamed of themselves.
It is quite apparent to anyone who has (as I have attempted) taken a
look from the "outside" that, certain appearances to the contrary,
"history" and all that word entails, means something radically
different in Southeastern Europe than it does elsewhere. To most
Americans, Canadians, Germans, French, Japanese, etc etc, "history" is
something that happened in the past, and while having plenty to teach
us, is still something that is "water under the bridge". In
Southeastern Europe (although not exclusively there) "history" is
almost tangibly real, and still very much a part of the present. This
is of course a generalization, but I believe that it is at least
correct in a relative sense. If it were not the case, it would not be
possible for anyone to believe that history was being "stolen", nor
would it matter who Alexander's heirs were, nor what the Skopje
airport was called. It is probalby offensive to say this, but those on
the "outside" who even bother to take note of this are either
mystified or (blackly) amused by the whole thing. This is not a good
thing, as bewilderment or amusement won't prevent the situation from
having some very real consequences.
It all boils down to the simple question that I have made the title of
this post: What is History? Discussing this question - even if one
chooses to treat it as a rhetorical one - will go a long way toward
clarifying the situation in the eyes of the world, and hopefully
toward its peaceful resolution. We all have an interest in that.
I feel the need to point out that this is in no way meant as a
judgement on anyone or any country, ethnicity, race, or tradition.
Rather, it is the conclusions drawn by an observer who is as flawed
and biased as anyone else. I for one do not believe that there is such
a thing as an offensive opinion - provided it is an honest one - and
anyone who does ought to refrain from responding to me or even reading
what I post. I doubt that needed to be said anyway  |
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akritas
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: Re: What Is History? |
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On 12 ¦¯¦Ê¦Ó, 01:53, andyto...@gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | Based upon my observations of what is discussed on various blogs,
newsgroups and newsagency message boards, I have come to several
(perhaps erroneous) conclusions about the Greece-Republic of Macedonia
"issue":
1) This problem is not about irredentism on either side, nor is it
likely to result in any overt conflict between the two states
involved. The reason I say this is the fact that the balance of power
is so overwhelmingly lopsided in Greece's favour as to ensure that any
real or potential hostilities will immediately be decided in the
latter's favour. Thus, any irredentism and/or tub-thumping (from
either source) cannot really be taken seriously. This is not to say
that conflict is impossible; quite the opposite. Rather, it is a more-
or-less foregone conclusion that the R of M will never be able to
defeat Greece militarily, nor will its real or potential irredentist
ideas ever have the slightest chance of succeeding.
2) The whole "irredentism" thing is IMHO a red herring aimed at
obscuring from the outside world certain ugly facts about the
conflict. The first of these is that there is a very strong element of
race-hatred involved here. "Memories" of past conflicts between the
two groups are still painfully fresh (even in people with no personal
experience of them - i.e., most people alive today), and the net
collective result of this is a latent conviction that it could all
happen again. Hate is the child of fear, and each side believes it has
ample reason to fear the other. I know that plenty of people will
vehemently dispute this point of view (and I freely admit that that's
all it is), but I remain unconvinced. One need only read what each
side says (and apparently believes) about the other to see where I am
coming from.
3) The "name issue" is at the very heart of the entire thing, and for
reasons that ought to make both sides ashamed of themselves.
It is quite apparent to anyone who has (as I have attempted) taken a
look from the "outside" that, certain appearances to the contrary,
"history" and all that word entails, means something radically
different in Southeastern Europe than it does elsewhere. To most
Americans, Canadians, Germans, French, Japanese, etc etc, "history" is
something that happened in the past, and while having plenty to teach
us, is still something that is "water under the bridge". In
Southeastern Europe (although not exclusively there) "history" is
almost tangibly real, and still very much a part of the present. This
is of course a generalization, but I believe that it is at least
correct in a relative sense. If it were not the case, it would not be
possible for anyone to believe that history was being "stolen", nor
would it matter who Alexander's heirs were, nor what the Skopje
airport was called. It is probalby offensive to say this, but those on
the "outside" who even bother to take note of this are either
mystified or (blackly) amused by the whole thing. This is not a good
thing, as bewilderment or amusement won't prevent the situation from
having some very real consequences.
It all boils down to the simple question that I have made the title of
this post: What is History? Discussing this question - even if one
chooses to treat it as a rhetorical one - will go a long way toward
clarifying the situation in the eyes of the world, and hopefully
toward its peaceful resolution. We all have an interest in that.
I feel the need to point out that this is in no way meant as a
judgement on anyone or any country, ethnicity, race, or tradition.
Rather, it is the conclusions drawn by an observer who is as flawed
and biased as anyone else. I for one do not believe that there is such
a thing as an offensive opinion - provided it is an honest one - and
anyone who does ought to refrain from responding to me or even reading
what I post. I doubt that needed to be said anyway
|
The purpose of history is to promote not group self-esteem, but
understanding of the world and the past, dispassionate analysis,
judgment and perspective, respect for divergent cultures and
traditions, and unflinching protection for those unifying ideas of
tolerance, democracy, and human rights that make free historical
inquiry possible.
The dispute between Greece and FYROM is an indicative sign of trends
concerning change and continuity. Greece has revised its policy vis-¨¤-
vis the name issue and is ready to meet the other side half way. This
is a tangible sign of change and realisation that there is no common
future in a world where states operate as billiard balls.
The Slav Macedonian side appears to operate on a zero sum framework.
The issue has always been a security challenge to the territorial
status. Domestic politics and the role of diaspora have always been at
the kernel of the issue and orchestrated revisionism from abroad. As
noted by H. Poulton "the Slav-Macedonian diaspora tends to be more
nationalistic than those in the home country"
This upstart mini-Macedonia is a product ofthe terrible conflict which
is described here by Professor John Koliopoulos. It did not appear as
Macedonia on any map before the Second World War. It is a landlocked
area with no natural boundaries. Its population, apart from the usual
Balkan niinorities, is mainly Slavonic and Albanian. As 'Macedonia' it
was a creation of Tito, to provide a launching-pad from which to
invade and take over the real Macedonia in northern Greece. The real
Macedonia, on the other hand, has a history of at least three
millennia: it was the homeland of Alexander the Great; the first
country in Europe to which St Paul was invited to 'come over and help
us'; the mainstay of-the Allied defence against Mussolini in 1940,
when (as we chose to put it) Britain 'stood alone'; and the birthplace
ofmodem Greece's outstanding Prime Minister, Constantine Karamanlis.
As long as FYROM plays at being a crusader for nationalist fantasies,
he will sink in the political morass. And as he sinks, he will act
spasmodically and rather ridiculously. If he keeps this up, no one
will take him seriously internationally. The Greek side should show
patience. Only if FYROM gets serious can he negotiate a solution, one
that will reflect the reality of the region and not harm the interests
of either side. Until then, the price that the Slav-Macedonians will
pay will be much greater than they think it is today |
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Istor the Macedonian
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: Re: What Is History? |
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On 12 Ïêô, 01:53, andyto...@gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | Based upon my observations of what is discussed on various blogs,
..........................................
what I post. I doubt that needed to be said anyway
|
Short answer to that malakas. Possibly there will be a longer one in
the future.
Humiliating history > humiliating past > humiliating older people > no
respect to them > why should young people respect me? > why should I
respect them? > TRAGEDY: (why should I keep environment clean?, why
should I try betterizing their life, why should I care about
neighboors? = I am a western monkey (=making money machine).
We don't want that western kind of human been. It is sick and leads to
all those modern life diseases. |
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Spirit of Truth
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: Re: What Is History? |
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<andytoole@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f30f433-6f28-4a8e-aef7-68ddbb1955d1@q35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
History is what I post. Opposite to that is what you post.
Spirit of Truth |
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Spirit of Truth
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: Re: What Is History? |
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<andytoole@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f30f433-6f28-4a8e-aef7-68ddbb1955d1@q35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Here is history, silly.
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
"You take the lies out of them, and they'll shrink to the size of your
hat, you take the malice out of them, and they will disappear."
Mark Twain (even Mark Twain knew about the revisionists
like yourself)
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
FYROM President Kiro Gligorov: "We are Slavs who came to this area in the
sixth century . . . we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
(President of FYROM Ciro Gligorov, from the Foreign Information Service
Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
P Gevgeliev wrote in "Skopje revives macedonian spectre", Free
Bulgaria,pp229-230,
It is true that we have given up the teaching of "Macedonian history", a
high falutin term for the ravings of a handful of maniacs in Skopje who are
so far gone in their nationalistic dementia and mental aberration as to
claim that the present "Macedonian" people are descendants of
Alexander the Great.
These "historians" seem to overlook the fact that the Slav tribes came to
this territory fully a thousand years after the death of Alexander the
Macedon."
And lets read what the ancients actually said :
ALEXANDER TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF AND REAL MACEDONIANS
BEING GREEK AND FIGHTING FOR GREECE:
Arrian
The Campaigns of Alexander.
Alexander talking to the troops before the battle.
Book 2-7
Penguin Classics.
Page 112.
Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.
" ...............There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service --
but how different is theirs cause from ours ! They will be fighting for
pay--- and not much of it at that; we on the contrary shall fight for
Greece, and our hearts will be in it.
As for our foreign troops ---Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,
Agrianes --- they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, and they
will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of
Asia."
ANCIENT GREEKS REFERRING TO REAL MACEDONIANS
AS GREEK:
Polybios 9.37.7-39.7
Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania
to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples of your
own race, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony and glory, but now
that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien
people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians, to take the
field with them against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the
Boiotians, the Thessalians, in fact with almost all the Hellenes with the
exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation...
....So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid of
the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. But
if some the most powerful citizens are opposed to this policy at least stay
neutral and do not side with the unjust."
REAL MACEDONIANS SAYING THEMSELVES THAT THEY ARE
GREEK:
Titus Livius, From the Foundation of the City 31
Speech of the Macedonian ambassador to the Aitolians:
"The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of
the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes
that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians,
all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are
enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not
from reasons that change from day to day."
Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)! |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: What Is History? |
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On Oct 12, 1:52 am, akritas <akritas.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On 12 ¦¯¦Ê¦Ó, 01:53, andyto...@gmail.com wrote:
Based upon my observations of what is discussed on various blogs,
newsgroups and newsagency message boards, I have come to several
(perhaps erroneous) conclusions about the Greece-Republic of Macedonia
"issue":
|
(snip my ravings)
| Quote: |
The purpose of history is to promote not group self-esteem, but
understanding of the world and the past, dispassionate analysis,
judgment and perspective, respect for divergent cultures and
traditions, and unflinching protection for those unifying ideas of
tolerance, democracy, and human rights that make free historical
inquiry possible.
|
Hear hear. I could not agree more.
| Quote: |
The dispute between Greece and FYROM is an indicative sign of trends
concerning change and continuity. Greece has revised its policy vis-¨¤-
vis the name issue and is ready to meet the other side half way. This
is a tangible sign of change and realisation that there is no common
future in a world where states operate as billiard balls.
|
Quite. And I have agreed with that all along.
| Quote: |
The Slav Macedonian side appears to operate on a zero sum framework.
The issue has always been a security challenge to the territorial
status. Domestic politics and the role of diaspora have always been at
the kernel of the issue and orchestrated revisionism from abroad. As
noted by H. Poulton "the Slav-Macedonian diaspora tends to be more
nationalistic than those in the home country"
|
Nothing new. The Irish and Jewish diasporae fit the same bill.
| Quote: |
This upstart mini-Macedonia is a product ofthe terrible conflict which
is described here by Professor John Koliopoulos. It did not appear as
Macedonia on any map before the Second World War. It is a landlocked
area with no natural boundaries. Its population, apart from the usual
Balkan niinorities, is mainly Slavonic and Albanian. As 'Macedonia' it
was a creation of Tito, to provide a launching-pad from which to
invade and take over the real Macedonia in northern Greece. The real
Macedonia, on the other hand, has a history of at least three
millennia: it was the homeland of Alexander the Great; the first
country in Europe to which St Paul was invited to 'come over and help
us';
|
Yep.
| Quote: | the mainstay of-the Allied defence against Mussolini in 1940,
when (as we chose to put it) Britain 'stood alone'; and the birthplace
ofmodem Greece's outstanding Prime Minister, Constantine Karamanlis.
|
This is where things get wooly for me. That's a 2000-year leap, and I
am not so sure that the Hellas of Antiquity is the same thing as that
which exists today. Or perhaps I might put this another way: if the
modern-day Republic of Macedonia is "A", the Hellenic Republic is "B",
and Ancient Greece is "C", which of the three is the odd man out? I
mean, if you took someone who knew nothing of all three and presented
them with a description of A, B and C respectively, which two would
they say had the most in common?
Once again, I have to say that I am not trying to sell any ideas here,
nor am I trying to rob anyone of their "history". What I am getting at
is that there seems to be a fundamental divergence between SE Europe
and "the west" over what history itself actually *is*. In SE Europe,
history seems to be seen as a continuous series of interwoven but
distinct threads that stretch back to a fairly remote past, as well as
continuing unbroken into the present. There is a bit of that here and
there in the rest of the world, but it is nowhere as pronounced or
"real" as it is in SE Europe. I am a history student, and I have noted
that the very way that The Past is perceived varies radically from
place to place, and I must confess that I find the SE European variant
the most "alien" of them all, even more so than the ultra-ancient
traditions that still exist in the realm of myth.
And of course, this fascinates me.
| Quote: |
As long as FYROM plays at being a crusader for nationalist fantasies,
he will sink in the political morass. And as he sinks, he will act
spasmodically and rather ridiculously. If he keeps this up, no one
will take him seriously internationally. The Greek side should show
patience.
|
Absolutely. Not only is this the morally right thing to do, Greece has
virtually all the cards in its hand, so the silly posturing of the
leadership of the R of M can be (relatively) safely laughed off.
| Quote: | Only if FYROM gets serious can he negotiate a solution, one
that will reflect the reality of the region and not harm the interests
of either side. Until then, the price that the Slav-Macedonians will
pay will be much greater than they think it is today |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: What Is History? |
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On Oct 12, 2:21 am, Istor the Macedonian <istormacedon...@gmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On 12 Ïêô, 01:53, andyto...@gmail.com wrote:> Based upon my observations of what is discussed on various blogs,
.........................................
what I post. I doubt that needed to be said anyway ;-)
Short answer to that malakas. Possibly there will be a longer one in
the future.
Humiliating history > humiliating past > humiliating older people > no
respect to them > why should young people respect me? > why should I
respect them? > TRAGEDY: (why should I keep environment clean?, why
should I try betterizing their life, why should I care about
neighboors? = I am a western monkey (=making money machine).
We don't want that western kind of human been. It is sick and leads to
all those modern life diseases.
|
Well, Istor, I think I have your point of view fairly clearly. But
like i said, there are people out there who are applying that same
logic to you. An Arab or an Indian might sum up life in Greece the
same way as you sum up life in the west. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: What Is History? |
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On Oct 12, 12:46 am, "Spirit of Truth" <junehar...@prodigy.net> wrote:
| Quote: | andyto...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f30f433-6f28-4a8e-aef7-68ddbb1955d1@q35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Here is history, silly.
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
"You take the lies out of them, and they'll shrink to the size of your
hat, you take the malice out of them, and they will disappear."
Mark Twain (even Mark Twain knew about the revisionists
like yourself)
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
|
That's not history. That's literature, or maybe philosophy.
| Quote: |
FYROM President Kiro Gligorov: "We are Slavs who came to this area in the
sixth century . . . we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
(President of FYROM Ciro Gligorov, from the Foreign Information Service
Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
|
Are you suggesting that Gligorov is qualified to make a statement like
that? Be careful where that logic leads you ...
| Quote: |
P Gevgeliev wrote in "Skopje revives macedonian spectre", Free
Bulgaria,pp229-230,
It is true that we have given up the teaching of "Macedonian history", a
high falutin term for the ravings of a handful of maniacs in Skopje who are
so far gone in their nationalistic dementia and mental aberration as to
claim that the present "Macedonian" people are descendants of
Alexander the Great.
These "historians" seem to overlook the fact that the Slav tribes came to
this territory fully a thousand years after the death of Alexander the
Macedon."
|
Fair enough. So why all the offense?
| Quote: |
And lets read what the ancients actually said :
ALEXANDER TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF AND REAL MACEDONIANS
BEING GREEK AND FIGHTING FOR GREECE:
Arrian
The Campaigns of Alexander.
Alexander talking to the troops before the battle.
Book 2-7
Penguin Classics.
Page 112.
Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.
" ...............There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service --
but how different is theirs cause from ours ! They will be fighting for
pay--- and not much of it at that; we on the contrary shall fight for
Greece, and our hearts will be in it.
As for our foreign troops ---Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,
Agrianes --- they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, and they
will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of
Asia."
|
Yes, but what has that got to do with today? 2300 years later? Who
were the "Macedonians" 2300 years prior to Alexander?
See what I mean?
| Quote: |
ANCIENT GREEKS REFERRING TO REAL MACEDONIANS
AS GREEK:
Polybios 9.37.7-39.7
Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania
to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples of your
own race, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony and glory, but now
that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien
people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians, to take the
field with them against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the
Boiotians, the Thessalians, in fact with almost all the Hellenes with the
exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation...
...So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid of
the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. But
if some the most powerful citizens are opposed to this policy at least stay
neutral and do not side with the unjust."
|
Once again, if today's Greeks are the "real" Macedonians (whatever
that is supposed to mean) 2300 years after Alexander, doesn't that
automatically call into question whether or not Alexander himself was
a Macedonian? I mean, who inhabited the area 2300 years before him?
| Quote: |
REAL MACEDONIANS SAYING THEMSELVES THAT THEY ARE
GREEK:
Titus Livius, From the Foundation of the City 31
Speech of the Macedonian ambassador to the Aitolians:
"The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of
the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes
that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians,
all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are
enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not
from reasons that change from day to day."
|
Once again, what did Livius know about Slavs or Turks or the internet
or Ronald McDonald or whatever. Plenty has happened between then and
now, and time didn't begin in the 4thC BC. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:19 am Post subject: Re: What Is History? |
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On Oct 12, 9:15 pm, "Spirit of Truth" <junehar...@prodigy.net> wrote:
| Quote: | andyto...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:934d5096-41b3-4128-9525-a5f4872d7051@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Will you stop posting silliness simply trying to mislead people
PLEASE!
|
Why don't you come up with a counterargument. "Truth" is, after all,
your stock in trade, is it not? The truth is all I am looking for as
well. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:04 am Post subject: Re: What Is History? |
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On Oct 12, 9:51 pm, "Spirit of Truth" <junehar...@prodigy.net> wrote:
| Quote: | andyto...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bae34526-a069-4ca5-9829-06dd7df08750@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 12, 9:15 pm, "Spirit of Truth" <junehar...@prodigy.net> wrote:
andyto...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:934d5096-41b3-4128-9525-a5f4872d7051@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com....
Will you stop posting silliness simply trying to mislead people
PLEASE!
Why don't you come up with a counterargument. "Truth" is, after all,
your stock in trade, is it not? The truth is all I am looking for as
well.
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
Look up the word "culture" and learn what you have apparently
missed in your education.
Spirit of Truth
|
I see. Can I expect personal attacks as your standard response? If so,
please ignore what I post. Thank you. |
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Spirit of Truth
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: Re: What Is History? |
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<andytoole@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:12a8b1d4-c47a-413e-9b48-63649dc8d10f@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
It is history as all of it was stated in the past, silly!
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
"You take the lies out of them, and they'll shrink to the size of your
hat, you take the malice out of them, and they will disappear."
Mark Twain (even Mark Twain knew about the revisionists
like yourself)
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
FYROM President Kiro Gligorov: "We are Slavs who came to this area in the
sixth century . . . we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
(President of FYROM Ciro Gligorov, from the Foreign Information Service
Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
P Gevgeliev wrote in "Skopje revives macedonian spectre", Free
Bulgaria,pp229-230,
It is true that we have given up the teaching of "Macedonian history", a
high falutin term for the ravings of a handful of maniacs in Skopje who are
so far gone in their nationalistic dementia and mental aberration as to
claim that the present "Macedonian" people are descendants of
Alexander the Great.
These "historians" seem to overlook the fact that the Slav tribes came to
this territory fully a thousand years after the death of Alexander the
Macedon."
And lets read what the ancients actually said :
ALEXANDER TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF AND REAL MACEDONIANS
BEING GREEK AND FIGHTING FOR GREECE:
Arrian
The Campaigns of Alexander.
Alexander talking to the troops before the battle.
Book 2-7
Penguin Classics.
Page 112.
Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.
" ...............There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service --
but how different is theirs cause from ours ! They will be fighting for
pay--- and not much of it at that; we on the contrary shall fight for
Greece, and our hearts will be in it.
As for our foreign troops ---Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,
Agrianes --- they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, and they
will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of
Asia."
ANCIENT GREEKS REFERRING TO REAL MACEDONIANS
AS GREEK:
Polybios 9.37.7-39.7
Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania
to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples of your
own race, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony and glory, but now
that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien
people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians, to take the
field with them against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the
Boiotians, the Thessalians, in fact with almost all the Hellenes with the
exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation...
....So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid of
the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. But
if some the most powerful citizens are opposed to this policy at least stay
neutral and do not side with the unjust."
REAL MACEDONIANS SAYING THEMSELVES THAT THEY ARE
GREEK:
Titus Livius, From the Foundation of the City 31
Speech of the Macedonian ambassador to the Aitolians:
"The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of
the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes
that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians,
all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are
enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not
from reasons that change from day to day."
Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)! |
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Spirit of Truth
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: Re: What Is History? |
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<andytoole@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:934d5096-41b3-4128-9525-a5f4872d7051@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Will you stop posting silliness simply trying to mislead people
PLEASE!
Here is history, silly.
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
"You take the lies out of them, and they'll shrink to the size of your
hat, you take the malice out of them, and they will disappear."
Mark Twain (even Mark Twain knew about the revisionists
like yourself)
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
FYROM President Kiro Gligorov: "We are Slavs who came to this area in the
sixth century . . . we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
(President of FYROM Ciro Gligorov, from the Foreign Information Service
Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
P Gevgeliev wrote in "Skopje revives macedonian spectre", Free
Bulgaria,pp229-230,
It is true that we have given up the teaching of "Macedonian history", a
high falutin term for the ravings of a handful of maniacs in Skopje who are
so far gone in their nationalistic dementia and mental aberration as to
claim that the present "Macedonian" people are descendants of
Alexander the Great.
These "historians" seem to overlook the fact that the Slav tribes came to
this territory fully a thousand years after the death of Alexander the
Macedon."
And lets read what the ancients actually said :
ALEXANDER TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF AND REAL MACEDONIANS
BEING GREEK AND FIGHTING FOR GREECE:
Arrian
The Campaigns of Alexander.
Alexander talking to the troops before the battle.
Book 2-7
Penguin Classics.
Page 112.
Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.
" ...............There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service --
but how different is theirs cause from ours ! They will be fighting for
pay--- and not much of it at that; we on the contrary shall fight for
Greece, and our hearts will be in it.
As for our foreign troops ---Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,
Agrianes --- they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, and they
will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of
Asia."
ANCIENT GREEKS REFERRING TO REAL MACEDONIANS
AS GREEK:
Polybios 9.37.7-39.7
Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania
to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples of your
own race, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony and glory, but now
that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien
people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians, to take the
field with them against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the
Boiotians, the Thessalians, in fact with almost all the Hellenes with the
exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation...
....So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid of
the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. But
if some the most powerful citizens are opposed to this policy at least stay
neutral and do not side with the unjust."
REAL MACEDONIANS SAYING THEMSELVES THAT THEY ARE
GREEK:
Titus Livius, From the Foundation of the City 31
Speech of the Macedonian ambassador to the Aitolians:
"The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of
the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes
that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians,
all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are
enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not
from reasons that change from day to day."
Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)! |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Spirit of Truth
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: Re: What Is History? |
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<andytoole@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:245904f6-c81c-4ee3-823b-899ccb79dea2@v15g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 12, 2:21 am, Istor the Macedonian <istormacedon...@gmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On 12 Ïêô, 01:53, andyto...@gmail.com wrote:> Based upon my observations
of what is discussed on various blogs,
.........................................
what I post. I doubt that needed to be said anyway ;-)
Short answer to that malakas. Possibly there will be a longer one in
the future.
Humiliating history > humiliating past > humiliating older people > no
respect to them > why should young people respect me? > why should I
respect them? > TRAGEDY: (why should I keep environment clean?, why
should I try betterizing their life, why should I care about
neighboors? = I am a western monkey (=making money machine).
We don't want that western kind of human been. It is sick and leads to
all those modern life diseases.
|
Well, Istor, I think I have your point of view fairly clearly. But
like i said, there are people out there who are applying that same
logic to you. An Arab or an Indian might sum up life in Greece the
same way as you sum up life in the west.
............................................................................................................
Only people like you who know no better, and have an
inability in the logic area.
Spirit of Truth |
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Spirit of Truth
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: Re: What Is History? |
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<andytoole@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bae34526-a069-4ca5-9829-06dd7df08750@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 12, 9:15 pm, "Spirit of Truth" <junehar...@prodigy.net> wrote:
| Quote: | andyto...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:934d5096-41b3-4128-9525-a5f4872d7051@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Will you stop posting silliness simply trying to mislead people
PLEASE!
|
Why don't you come up with a counterargument. "Truth" is, after all,
your stock in trade, is it not? The truth is all I am looking for as
well.
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
Look up the word "culture" and learn what you have apparently
missed in your education.
Spirit of Truth |
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Spirit of Truth
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: Re: What Is History? |
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<andytoole@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:30ad94d0-3c09-479b-956d-0f0049474b33@v56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 12, 9:51 pm, "Spirit of Truth" <junehar...@prodigy.net> wrote:
| Quote: | andyto...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bae34526-a069-4ca5-9829-06dd7df08750@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 12, 9:15 pm, "Spirit of Truth" <junehar...@prodigy.net> wrote:
andyto...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:934d5096-41b3-4128-9525-a5f4872d7051@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Will you stop posting silliness simply trying to mislead people
PLEASE!
Why don't you come up with a counterargument. "Truth" is, after all,
your stock in trade, is it not? The truth is all I am looking for as
well.
.....................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Look up the word "culture" and learn what you have apparently
missed in your education.
Spirit of Truth
|
I see. Can I expect personal attacks as your standard response? If so,
please ignore what I post. Thank you.
.......................................................................................................
.......................................................................................................
Personal attacks?
Not at all...just trying to get you educated. As I said look up the
definition
of "culture", you apparently haven't the faintest idea what it means?!
Spirit of Truth |
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